Consumerist: "Should a First Officer Make More Than 23k?" Ill informed Commenters

[machophil]

I think we all agree that no airline pilot should be making 20k/year.

What we disagree on is how we ended up with this reality. I argue that this is because of the decline of the labor movement. I refute the claim that this reality is due to principles of supply and demand. Both the military and regionals are breeding grounds for major airline pilots. Both career routes are stepping stones to the majors. Both routes have an abundant supply of qualified candidates. So why is it that one route offers a way better benefits package? That's not supply and demand.

There are still some great career spanning pilot jobs to be had with fierce competition to get hired; but then why don't we see those employers undercutting their pilots? Supply and demand principles dictate that they should be!

And in regards to "qualified" applicants, there's absolutely no evidence that majors, regionals, or uncle sam's pilots are statistically more or less qualified than each other, college boys or not. For every accident or personal story you mention, there'll be another from the oppositely qualified pilot to oppose your thesis.

This squeezing of essential professions is happening elsewhere. I know of good pediatricians losing their practices because parents can't afford to insure their kids! This is happening because of destructive market manipulation and lack of advocacy, not supply and demand.

 

[nwaf16dude]

Comparing the military to the regionals is really an apples to oranges comparison. I don't think there are really many guys that join the military just to qualify to be airline pilots. Sure, there are some, but most of us did it because we wanted to fly military aircraft. Becoming qualified to be an airline guy is a nice consequence or fall back plan. Also, I really don't think many join because of the benefits. The benefits make people stay in, not get in. Then there is the service commitment. How many guys
would sign up to be regional airline pilots if you had to promise 11 years of your life to that company?

For me (and I think I'm pretty typical) it was a case of "I just can't stand the bs anymore" and the airlines were hiring at the time so I decided to give it a shot. I got out, got a reserve job, got hired at NW and off I went. I ended up furloughed, and was very lucky to have the mil to fall back on.

Most of the guys I know in the military aren't very interested in airline jobs anymore. Unless the pay and benefits of major airline jobs get better, I don't think regional guys have to worry about much competition from mil guys.

 

[Jon Rivoli]

How about, raise the requirement for an ATP to 7K-8K hours. That would slow the slide downhill dramatically. The regionals would run out of qualified captains real quick.

 

[Lear70]

Comparing the military to the regionals is really an apples to oranges comparison. I don't think there are really many guys that join the military just to qualify to be airline pilots. Sure, there are some, but most of us did it because we wanted to fly military aircraft. Becoming qualified to be an airline guy is a nice consequence or fall back plan. Also, I really don't think many join because of the benefits. The benefits make people stay in, not get in. Then there is the service commitment. How many guys
would sign up to be regional airline pilots if you had to promise 11 years of your life to that company?

For me (and I think I'm pretty typical) it was a case of "I just can't stand the bs anymore" and the airlines were hiring at the time so I decided to give it a shot. I got out, got a reserve job, got hired at NW and off I went. I ended up furloughed, and was very lucky to have the mil to fall back on.

Most of the guys I know in the military aren't very interested in airline jobs anymore. Unless the pay and benefits of major airline jobs get better, I don't think regional guys have to worry about much competition from mil guys.

That's EXACTLY our point...

The experienced military aviators with 10+ years of flight experience and the equivalent of 5,000-7,000+ TT will not GO to the regionals because the pay, benefits, and QOL are so piss-poor. I don't blame them.

That also means that the only place regionals can get pilots when the majors are hiring and the regionals are sucking wind for pilots is to hire the lowest-time Joe Schmoe that will take the job.

It's no secret anymore than you have to sacrifice 10 years of your LIFE just to get to a decent point in wage potential, and will NEVER have a shot at 6+ figures at MOST regionals unless you become a check airman that gets paid time and a half or unless you get lucky and get on with a major.

Therefore, the only good pilots we are getting are those who get into it because they love it. The majority of intelligent people will stay away from the career field, go do something else for a living to make money, and fly a cub or Citabria on nice weekends.

It's not comparing military to regionals that we're talking about, it's the lack of highly-qualified, experienced AVIATORS and not just guys who do the bare minimum through their ratings, buy their way into a puppy mill, and end up in the right seat with 500 hours and a blank stare when told to brief the HLN circle to the VOR approach in mountainous terrain then wait for two GPWS warnings to execute the GPWS escape procedure when they botch the approach AND screw up the missed approach and end up within 500 feet of a mountain. Pinnacle incident 3 or so years ago.

You can't put a price on experience in a safety-sensitive position, but you CAN price experienced, capable employees out of the seat altogether, thus ensuring that at least on some flights, you don't have experienced, capable employees in the seat. All you can do is hope and pray that you don't combine two people, one of which is inexperienced, the other of which isn't really capable, on a flight TOGETHER and then something happens. Oh wait,,,

 

[nwaf16dude]

I agree that something needs to be done about the minimums at the regionals. I think requiring ATP minimums would be a great start. I've written my congressmen, how about you?

 

[Microclimates]

I agree with the above post. If you are not sure if you are one of the pilots bringing our industry down, I'll just let you know. If you have no college education or military experience, are in ridiculous debt due to your flight training (100k or more), and working for a regional, then you are part of the problem. Anyone with sound judgment would not put him/herself in that situation, and anyone without sound judgment should not be flying airplanes. If you are $100,000 in debt and a regional first officer, then you are basically working for free for five years just to pay off your debt. The problem is these pilots I just described think people respect them because they are airline pilots. The truth is the general public looks down on regional airline pilots. They have no respect for us because we don't even have respect for ourselves. I know too many pilots in their mid to late 20's that live off of their parents. Rant over.

Let me start by saying that I am lucky enough not to fit your "part of the problem" profile (my only current debt is a very boring mortgage, thank God). That said, I think that the situation you describe is common throughout many professions, not just aviation. I have a friend who got a Masters in Social Service Admin, from the University of Chicago. Add that tab to her UCLA financial aid tab and I wouldn't be surprised if she owed about 100k. Yet the average salary in her field is about 50k, entry (for people with graduate degrees) is about 35k.
Her husband got an MA in public policy, also at a good school, and probably owes around the same. Depending on his career choices, he may make it big or may top out at around 100k.
Any lawyer who chooses the prosecutor's office, or the public defendant office, as a career, will be in a similar situation.

The biggest problem for us is the fact that you can't take your experience with you to other employers, like all the other professions can. So whereas a public defendant can ditch his/her low paying gig and go to a law office to make real money, whatever new job we go to will always pay less than the last job we held, for at least the first year (a 2nd year regional first officer probably makes the same or a bit more than a first year United FO on reserve, no?)
The other big issue is that it is hard to measure accurately pilot performance, beyond pass/fail or, God forbid, live/die. So in most cases, once the economy requires a big hiring push for the airlines, they adapt their required qualifications potentially all the way down to "must have pulse", as even the majors have had to do on occasion.

I personally am not offended by a pilot who invested in a "0 to hero" course, as long as we're talking about people who know their limitations and are true professionals (I have witnessed many scary sim rides by 'experienced' seasoned professionals).

KBUF was a tragedy; I think we are over thinking this whole mess. the Captain (poor guy) was mediocre, as proven by his numerous failed rides. His checkride history should have precluded him a career in 121. For me it's just that easy. GIA may or may not have made him the pilot he was, but Colgan is responsible for choosing to put him in command notwithstanding his record. that's it.

counterrant over.

 

[OldManPilot]

This is a very interesting string and I hope every pilot takes the time to read and understand what they are reading.

I have said for many years that pilots need to take control of their craft. I like to use the AMA (American Medical Association) as and example of what needs to be done in the aviation community. The AMA like it or not is a union; however, they control their own profession. They control who has Medical Schools, the criterea to get into medical school. The corriculum in Medical Schools and the dictate much of the training needed once Internship begins all the way through residency.
We as pilot should use this as an example. You can take the entire pay issue to one true element. Pay is low because there are too many pilots. If we controlled our craft, we would dictate who and where there are flight schools. What it takes to get into the flight school. And most importantly, how many are allowed to attend each and every year. Want to make more pay? Try drying up the glut of pilots comming into our industry from every direction you can imagine.
I spent many years of study and years to get to where I am only to see pay come down and down.
We MUST take control of our profession, and I am up for suggestions.

 

[800Dog]

Good point. Most pilots out there that went the Regional rout started @ $19-$25k and worked there way up. There is an expectation that ONE day we will either upgrade or move on to a major and make more money. The bad part is that if you are a 10 year captain at a regional and making $80k and you get hired at FedEx or UPS, Delta or United, you have to take a SUBSTANTIAL pay cut the first year or two and then the pay gets up there again.

You are wrong. Second year pay at the listed companies is as follows:

FedEx $74-$136
UPS $82-$122
Delta $72-$99
United $52-$74

Also, do not forget the benefits. Retirement, 401k, health, work rules etc. etc.

 

[808pilot]

wow.... since i joined this bizarre website back in 05....this is by far...the best thread i have read....for the most part people have responded with intelligent arguments...no one outright attacked the other.....i have actually learned something from reading this... if only it could carry on.....

 

[propdog]

You are wrong. Second year pay at the listed companies is as follows:

FedEx $74-$136
UPS $82-$122
Delta $72-$99
United $52-$74

Also, do not forget the benefits. Retirement, 401k, health, work rules etc. etc.

He is talking about first year pay and the fact most have to take a paycut to start with a major. As a DAL pilot, I can assure you that I did not make $72/hr on the first year. I did take a major pay cut to work at a major.

 

[800Dog]

He is talking about first year pay and the fact most have to take a paycut to start with a major. As a DAL pilot, I can assure you that I did not make $72/hr on the first year. I did take a major pay cut to work at a major.

Reread his post, he talks about first and second year pay. Anyone can suck up a pay cut for one year unless they are living beyond their means. I took an hourly pay cut my first year at Delta as well but, it was just one year and I enjoyed a nice raise in year 2.

 

[Lear70]

Reread his post, he talks about first and second year pay. Anyone can suck up a pay cut for one year unless they are living beyond their means. I took an hourly pay cut my first year at Delta as well but, it was just one year and I enjoyed a nice raise in year 2.

Speak for yourself...

One is not "living beyond his means" if they have to struggle taking a 50% or more pay cut!!

The only way many survive is because a spouse works or they have enough saved and/or can sell some "luxury items" (like I did) to make it through a year earning HALF what they were.

I suspect if most of us were to take a personal inventory, taking a 50% pay cut would mean that at least one or more bills would not get paid. Heck, a house loan only looks at fixed debt and EXPECTS a 40-50% debt to income ratio (which doesn't include utilities, food, gas, cell phone, etc).

(I got the gist of Blazer's post and agree, having had to endure it in recent years).