Comparing hiring practices--Who is doing it right?

[xtwapilot]

Kathy:

Are you suggesting that the CP or someone else within flt ops is not qualified to make a decision on whether a pilot can communicate well with other non-pilot types? I feel, and I am sure many will echo this, part of being a good pilot is being able to make good decisions and communicate effectively. I dont' think HR reps are the only ones qualified in determining who can and cannot communicate effectively with others. Again I feel HR should have no input what so ever in the pilot hiring process, the fact that there is an HR rep on a pilot reveiw board and every board that I know of has to have a concensus to hire a pilot, the HR person can very well be the reason a pilot is not hired. This entire thinking that somehow HR is the only department that can make the determination that a pilot will be a good employee is simply wrong. HR does not have any special skills that somehow make them better at determining the value of an employee vs. a department head. Keep in mind the original function of the HR department was to be strictly administrative, i.e. process paperwork, do employee background checks, place ads, and at the direction of the respective department head, call potential candidates. They also normally take care of benefits, leaves etc. I'm sorry but I think we'll have to agree to disgree about the function of an HR rep in the pilot hiring process.

 

[Freight Dog]

I agree with xtwa pilot. A panel interview should consist of a department head (Chief Pilot), an instructor and a regular line pilot. They are perfectly qualified to see a potential of a pilot:

Chief Pilot - whether or not a guy has an attitude problem or anything. Review logbooks, etc.

Instructor - see whether a guy is trainable, and screen him for potential training issues/CRM skills.

Line Pilot - what the potential candidate would be to work with on the line.

Each take notes and then at the end compare the notes.

An HR person is qualified to judge the candidate's suit, shoes, grooming, etc. Following a pilot getting hired, chances of him or her running across that HR person is fairly remote. I haven't seen any HR girls I dealt with since I took my pre-hire physical at Aloha, yet I'd regularly deal with my interview panel - the 2 instructors did my recurrents, and I've flown trips with them. The Chief Pilot is another instructor and flies the line occasionally. Those guys are perfectly qualified to make a determination as I work with them regularly.

 

[FlyBoeingJets]

.

An HR person is qualified to judge the candidate's suit, shoes, grooming, etc...

I couldn't help but chuckle at the above

Southwest does the one on one interview with three people. Two with Captains or retired Captains and one with HR. Maybe it is to average out the performance. Just in case one of the three went badly.

Odds are a pilot will eventually have to deal with a non-pilot. Maybe not as FO but definitely as Captain. Gate agents, TSA, Flight Attendants, LEOs, Emergency medical services and maybe even a PASSENGER.

Maybe all that HR stuff is geared toward the gruff ex-military types.

 

[enigma]

Disclaimer: I'm biased.

As some already know, my 'airline' interviews were at Cathay, Alaska and Atlas in that order.

I got hired by Atlas so naturally I think Atlas 'got it right' and here's why:

Atlas isn't just looking for pilots. They're looking for employees.

I happen to think I'm your average run of the mill pilot but I'm a pretty god dang good employee.

Who knows about Cathay? But I definitely busted the sim at Alaska. At Atlas the sim ride was more about how you brief the other guys and include them in the ride. There was very little emphasis on instrument flying. As for the interview it lasted all of 10 minutes. And apparently that's all they needed to determine if they could spend 10 hours with you.

What I'm trying to say is that if you looked at my resume (with a bunch of SA227 and DC6 time) I'm immediately excluded from the vast majority of airlines out there.

But ironically, someone out there thought I'd be an asset at a company that operates 747s.

Who would've ever thought that? Not Cathay. Not Alaska. Go figure.

Bottom line: it's their company, they make the rules. We get angry and frustrated because the stakes are high, we've sacrificed a lot and it's really competitive. But every company uses a method that provides the 'type' they seek.

Personally, I never applied to United because I knew I'd never fit in there.

I have many friends at Atlas, they're all freak shows, and I fit in. It's a good fit. So in a weird way Cathay and Alaska did me a favor. Thank you Atlas.

Cheers.

Mr. R, great post. Thanks for the wake up call. As some know, I've been trying to get on with SWA for almost a decade..............and I've got nothing to show for it but two failures.

On the other hand, Spirit called me in, gave me a one-on-one interview with ONE (I repeat ONE) pilot. We basically visited for two hours and he made the offer. In truth, that's my kind of company. (thanks Jack)

My Spirit interview consisted of a few questions to verify that my experience matched my resume, a few to verify that I had the required level of technical knowledge, a few to verify that I wasn't a scab, and a few to determine if I could pass training. I'm sure that he was continually evaluating me from the "can I stand to spend a month with this guy" perspective.

In my case, getting the interview was pure luck, passing it was easy. It was easy because I am an employee who shows up, doesn't call in sick unless I'm dying, stays late, studies my craft and gets along with most everyone. For their trust, Spirit got an employee who has shown up, only called in sick once (albeit for one and a half years, but that's another story) stays late, studies my craft and has very few enemies.

Sorry for being self centered and boring. I'm afraid that I'll have to stay that way because I'm still trying to get hired other places and I DANG sure don't want to pi$$ anyone off.

enigma

PS, the Spirit interview has changed since I was hired last century. However, I hear that HR has almost no input into the hiring decision. A Spirit applicant will get judged by his/her peers.

 

[Freight Dog]

"Tell me about the time you had a crush on your mother. How did you handle it?"

"Who do you like better, your mom or your dad? Why?"

"Do you still or have you ever fried an ant or some small animal with a magnifying glass?"

"If a captain showed up downstairs wearing a dress, what would you say?"

Then.. you have some hot HR girl who purposely shows off her perfectly augmented boobs and legs and then disqualifies you for scoping her out.

"So Mr. Peckerwood, what makes you a great candidate for XYZ Airlines given the fact that your suit went out of style 3 months ago?"

A chief pilot or a current line pilot can evaluate your people skills just fine. After all, it won't be your lovely Hooters-waitress-turned-HR-interviewer disciplining you (unfortunately) if you screw up. It'll be your hairy Chief Pilot with a bad breath. Hence.... I don't think HR people should be around for interviewing pilots.

But then again, that's just my .02 cents.

 

[WillowRunVortex]

"Tell me about the time you had a crush on your mother. How did you handle it?"

"Who do you like better, your mom or your dad? Why?"

"Do you still or have you ever fried an ant or some small animal with a magnifying glass?"

"If a captain showed up downstairs wearing a dress, what would you say?"

Then.. you have some hot HR girl who purposely shows off her perfectly augmented boobs and legs and then disqualifies you for scoping her out.

"So Mr. Peckerwood, what makes you a great candidate for XYZ Airlines given the fact that your suit went out of style 3 months ago?"

A chief pilot or a current line pilot can evaluate your people skills just fine. After all, it won't be your lovely Hooters-waitress-turned-HR-interviewer disciplining you (unfortunately) if you screw up. It'll be your hairy Chief Pilot with a bad breath. Hence.... I don't think HR people should be around for interviewing pilots.

But then again, that's just my .02 cents.

I think these are direct questions from UAL, seriously. Isnt this a load of crap the more you think about it? Why are we letting that place survive?

 

[Spooky 1]

CAL hiring experience way back in time

I was furloughed from Western Airlines and on a military leave at the same time this happend back in the early sixties. After I had been working at WAL for about a month or so, and couple of friends of mine had gotten on at CAl and were given B707/720 SO assignments right out of training. So using the grass is greener appraoch to life I went over and applied to CAL. The woman in employment, this was before anyone had heard of HR, was very nice her name was Mike Dalton, go figure. The whole preemployment process was sliker than snot. She said that since I was DC6 qualified I would probably go directly to DEN where CAL and UAL had an interchange going with the DC6. Also I would get checked out in the Viscount as an F/O. Well this was not the LAX B707/720 position that I thought would be mine for taking so after a day or so I called and politely said that I was withdrawing my application to which she said she was sorry, CAL was a great airline with a great future and she was sorry that I was not going to be a part of it.

Fast forward two+ years, and I am in the same employment office asking for that job that I had turned down earlier. My comtemporaries were all B707/720 FO's by now with Capt slots right around the corner. Some guys were making Capt on the Boeing with as little as three years service in those days. Well Ms. Dalton was still there and said she actually remembered me from before. She said we can expidite this application and after about an hour or so of filling out paper work she said I would have to go down and see Capt. Stubbens for final review and approval. In those days Tarpy Tailors maintanined a uniform store right in the CAL GO and I was tempted to drop in and order my uniform before even seeing Capt. "Red" Stubbens. Big Mistake! I knew of Stubbens from friends who worked at CAL at the time. He was fire beathing Marine Col. who was notorious for ripping ass when it need to be ripped. I entered his office and sat down while he looked my application over. Then he spoke! He said words to this effect, "You did not want us two years ago, we don't want you now. You are not even qualified to be a CAL pilot, now get out of my office". He might have said get the "hell" out of my office. I was numb and seriously suicidal for a moment as I left the parking lot.

Later as the fortunes of CAL subsided and the bitter experiences of Lorenzo were heaped upon this pilot group, I silently said oh thank you Capt. Red Stubbens for saving me from a fate worse then death. I later worked at Flying Tigers, Pan Am, back to Western and finally at Delta. Of all those, I probably would be better off today had I stayed at the Tigers although my career path has been truly golden with but a few opportunites to have really screwed up and it was not because I was any smarter that the next guy. Just a lot luckier!

 

[FlyBoeingJets]

I'm thinking as an airline gets bigger it becomes impossible for the chief pilot and chief of training to do interviews. Too many.

Then they hire an HR staff to assist. Not to mention the HR staff is cheaper.

This last part got out of control at UAL and DAL. UAL fired the infamous good cop, bad cop team in 1999.

DAL's psych doctor went off the deep end. DAL subsequently called folks failed by this guy and hired them over the phone. My bud was already at FedEx and turned DAL down. Best thing that ever happened to him.

 

[semperfido]

spook--great story
fido

 

[canyonblue737]

xtwapilot
Agreed! I have always thought it an insult that non-pilots bear so much weight in hiring pilots.

At SWA out of 4 interview phases 3 of them are run by a total of 4 pilots who will see you. you only are interviewed by one "HR" person. then the results of all of that, plus pilot LORs are sent to a decision board made up almost totally of chief pilots and perhaps one "HR" person.

 

[WillowRunVortex]

I agree with megadeth on this one. Why the hell should I go out and spend $6000-$10000 of my money for a SHOT at SWA? I know it's a good place to work, but it's not THAT good. How many guys out there have spent that money and SWA has said 'sorry!!", or have not even called them? I don't have a problem with them requiring a 737 type to work there, but I do have a problem with them requiring it for an interview. As far as I know, they technically don't, but the only way I would ever spend that kind of money was if I had already been hired and were on my way there.

I think your info is outdated. You have to have the type when you show up for training, after your hired.

 

[capt. megadeth]

I think your info is outdated. You have to have the type when you show up for training, after your hired.

Yeah but your chances of getting an interview without the type is slim to none.

 

[:-)]

At SWA out of 4 interview phases 3 of them are run by a total of 4 pilots who will see you. you only are interviewed by one "HR" person. then the results of all of that, plus pilot LORs are sent to a decision board made up almost totally of chief pilots and perhaps one "HR" person.

That's great, except for this. If the People Department interviewer downs you, you'll never get to the pilots on the decision board.

 

[canyonblue737]

That's great, except for this. If the People Department interviewer downs you, you'll never get to the pilots on the decision board.

i don't think so. i believe if any 1 person during the interview "downs you" you can still get hired provided the rest think you did well and you have good LORs. after all the decision board has to come to a "decision" and that means they aren't only hiring the folks who had all 4 pilots and 1 PD person give you a thumbs up.

 

[typhoonpilot]

While I'll agree that HR has become a necessity in this day and age to make sure that all the legalities are followed, I'll disagree that they need to be in there doing the actual interviewing. I've had quite a few interviews in the last decade and a half. The good ones never involved HR until the decision was made to hire me.

Example one:

Walked into an FBO that had a Bandeirante parked out back. Walking down the staircase is an old colleague of mine. I say, " hey Gordon, how's it going ? You wouldn't have anything to do with that Bandit back there would you ? " Yes, actually I do, he says. Wouldn't need any pilots for it would you ?. Yes, actually, we have a class starting Monday, can you be here ? ( note, this was on a Friday ). Yes, I can.

See, interviewing doesn't need to be difficult or involve HR.

Example two:

Friend and I walk into Great American Airways office at the Reno airport. Chat with the D.O. about their operation ( we both flew the DC-9 at USAir ). Have a nice chat, tell him we flew the -9 and would be interested in a job if one comes along. Nothing then, but 6 months later I get a call from my friend. He says that GAA is hiring 1 Captain and 2 F.O.s. "I'm one of the F.O.s and you're the other", he says.

Again, interviewing doesn't need to be hard or involve HR.

Example three:

Foreign airline comes to the States looking for 12 American pilots. The " interview " is a sim assesment in the MD-80 sim in Seattle. About 45 minutes of NDB work in 30 knot winds. Take-off, fly a SID with two NDB's in it; hold at an NDB; NDB approach to a go-around; NDB approach to a landing. Afterwards the deputy D.O. says to my friend and I ( same one from example two ). " You come Taiwan ".

Still no HR.

Example four:

Job in Taiwan is about to end so I call some acquaintances at Boeing and ask if they need any pilots. A month later get a call from them saying to come in for an interview. Interview is with the Chief Pilot, a retired Delta MD-11 Captain. We chat about flying in Taiwan and other stuff and then have long discussion on whether or not I'll go back to USAir one day. I promise him I'll stay as long as the assignment they are hiring me for requires. He decides on the spot to hire me and then sends me to HR to get a drug test.

Sum of HR involvement here, sending me to the drug test and processing some paperwork. This at a Fortune 50 company that really need to watch their legalities.


Example five:

North American in 1995. Went to New York and had a chat with the chief pilot and MD-80 fleet chief. Then they took me in to see the owner and we had a short chat. Got hired but turned it down to go to Taiwan, the chief pilot telling me if things didn't work out in Taiwan that I could always give him a call. Very classy outfit.

Again, not an HR person in sight.


So you see, HR really doesn't need to be involved until the decision to hire you has been made. Yea, they may need to brief the interviewers on the things not to ask to keep it legal, but they don't need to be an integral part of the decision process.


TP