Comparing hiring practices--Who is doing it right?

[canyonblue]

There are valid ways to determine if a person's fit for the job: put them in the sim, give them a written exam, background/qualification checks, LOR's ( I'm not even sure of the validity of this one ), etc. Basing a hiring decision on "...tell us why should we hire YOU ?..." or a storytime, organ-grinder's monkey dance simply doesn't float with what I know to be true about what it actually takes to do the job in question.

Go and rent the movie "Miracle". It is about the 1980 Olympic Hockey Team. In it Coach Brooks gives his team a B/S exam to take, just to see what response he would get. They could not see what taking this exam had to do with being on a hockey team. His plan for the team was he "wasn't looking for the best players, just the right ones".

 

[bafanguy]

His plan for the team was he "wasn't looking for the best players, just the right ones".

Well now, that's the issue, isn't it ?

 

[xtwapilot]

Pilots as usual have allowed the HR departments at the airlines to hijack the entire hiring process. Look at any other profession, lets take an accountant for example, the person hiring that accountant is the head of the accounting department, HR's function is to process the paperwork and thats it. They should not be invovled with the hiring process at all. No other profession has given HR that kind of power but the airlines. As for sim evals in interviews, they proved to be totally unreliable indicators of piloting ability. United in the mid 90's used a sim and found out that they still had a high failure rate in newhire training because people were going out there and flying the profile several times to beat the system. I have only been to one company that does the hiring process as it should be, I won't mention them because I don't want it changed. But the process is as follows, interview with the CP and another management type from flt ops. Once they give you the okay, you are sent to the HR rep to do the paperwork and a drug test. The CP calls you few days later with the thumps up or down.

 

[canyonblue737]

One reason to go a Small commuter early in your career--- the connections you make. Networking seems to be a lot tighter at a company like Great Lakes than say AirWis

hammer hits nail on the head.

 

[canyonblue737]

There are valid ways to determine if a person's fit for the job: put them in the sim, give them a written exam, background/qualification checks, LOR's ( I'm not even sure of the validity of this one ), etc. Basing a hiring decision on "...tell us why should we hire YOU ?..." or a storytime, organ-grinder's monkey dance simply doesn't float with what I know to be true about what it actually takes to do the job in question.

Right now SWA is interviewing pilots who by and large have thousands of hours of PIC turbine, often are check airman, or are highly experienced military aviators and IPs. Unlike a small commuter interviewing inexperienced pilots SWA knows that by and large everyone they interview would pass a sim, pass a written exam etc. Since everyone interviewing has a type or must get a type prior to showing up they also know with great confidence you can fly a 737. In fact from what I have heard in the last several years you could count on one hand the number of folks who washed due to flying skill.

SOOO... that leaves the "are you a good guy/girl who fits with the culture of SWA. are you a jerk?" To find that out they have to go into the storytime and get you to talk like a buddy/friend because if you accept it or not being a part of SWA is much more than pushing the throttles forward and pointing the nose somewhere, something more we think helps keep the company fun, and solvent in the long run. that doesn't mean other companies do it wrong, or don't do it better... but there is a method behind the madness.

 

[WillowRunVortex]

Right now SWA is interviewing pilots who by and large have thousands of hours of PIC turbine, often are check airman, or are highly experienced military aviators and IPs. Unlike a small commuter interviewing inexperienced pilots SWA knows that by and large everyone they interview would pass a sim, pass a written exam etc. Since everyone interviewing has a type or must get a type prior to showing up they also know with great confidence you can fly a 737. In fact from what I have heard in the last several years you could count on one hand the number of folks who washed due to flying skill.

SOOO... that leaves the "are you a good guy/girl who fits with the culture of SWA. are you a jerk?" To find that out they have to go into the storytime and get you to talk like a buddy/friend because if you accept it or not being a part of SWA is much more than pushing the throttles forward and pointing the nose somewhere, something more we think helps keep the company fun, and solvent in the long run. that doesn't mean other companies do it wrong, or don't do it better... but there is a method behind the madness.

Can you successfully taxi fast, land fast, and get gas at the corner gas station in the 737?

 

[LUVChild]

Couple of my thoughts, here. Sorry if this is lengthy, but I think some of you will find some good information in here.

As far as allowing HR to hijack the hiring process:
I think that those who are saying this are unfamiliar with HR and the purpose that it serves. In most cases, HR is there to ensure that laws are followed when it comes to hiring. In other words, they try to make sure that the hiring process is as fair and valid as possible. I don't know how many of you have ever taken place in a hiring board at a major company, but it seems to me that those of you who lament HR taking an active role in the hiring process are jumping to conclusions and talking out of ignorance, rather than true experience.

Southwest looks for people who are team players, who are largely devoid of ego, who take their jobs seriously, while not taking themselves too seriously. This is not a big secret - you'd know it if you read NUTS! SWA just doesn't want the pilot who treats his fellow pilots with respect; SWA wants the pilot who also treats the flight attendants, ramp agents, ops agents, and dispatcher with the same level of respect. If I remember correctly, this is part of what Southwest's HR people look for from their perspective in an interview, in addition to the basic qualifications, etc.

In any hiring process, HR is largely there to make sure that the hiring process is done LEGALLY. And trust me, gentlemen: you want that. While pilots are great at flying planes, let's face it: many of them are sucky businesspeople who wouldn't know an illegal or unethical interview question if it sat on their face and wiggled.

If the pilot group oversaw the hiring at ANY airline, I could almost guarantee you that the "good ol' boy system" that you moan about would get even worse. Every guy would want to be hiring just his buddies to fly at the airline. Interviews would be a nightmare if the flight operations department at any airline were left to oversee them. The very system you complain about is there very system that HR is there to counteract.

And as far as those "storytelling" interviews go, here's a little more education for you:
That type of interview is what's known as a behavioral interview. It happens to be one of the most valid, and thus legally defensible, types of job interviews available. The premise of behavioral interviewing is NOT to tell stories, but rather to provide examples of times when you demonstrated a particular behavior. By way of example: say a company is looking for an employee who is good at handling conflict. They will ask a behavioral interview question that seeks to determine if that employee has handled conflict constructively in the past.

Could the job applicant lie and make up a story? Of course. But here's the point: ANYBODY CAN LIE IN AN INTERVIEW! And let's face it: it's much harder to lie when asked for an example. How would you answer if the interviewer asked you, "So how are you at handling conflict?" versus asking, "Tell me about a time when you had a conflict with a co-worker, and how did you handle it?"

Think about it, and you'll see the benefits of behavioral interviewing.

No interview process is 100% perfect. Behavioral interviewing for pilots alone is not satisfactory, so it is not the only hiring criteria used at SWA (nor at any other airline that I know of). But it can indicate some of the personality traits of a person being hired, and let's be honest, personality and "Southwest fit" are a HUGE issue at Southwest, in addition to the flying skills. SWA's people are what has made them so successful. But while you can probably be trained to fly like Southwest wants you to fly, chances are, your personality is pretty much set in stone. There's no changing who you are. Which is why Southwest does those behavioral interviews. They want to weed out those slugs who suck the lifeblood out of you every time you fly with them.

As I said, no interview process is 100% perfect. As somebody pointed out, sometimes the creeps slip through, and sometimes the good guys get left out. People are messy creatures (duh), and job interviewing is all about people, so it's inherently imperfect no matter what type of interview it is.

Just my contribution to the discussion.

 

[Remington]

Good post.
Question....does an interviewee who stinks at telling stories but is the 'Southwest type' still get hired using the behavioral interview???

 

[LUVChild]

Remington, check your PMs.

I personally think I suck at telling stories. But hey, they hired me because I could provide specific examples of the qualities I think they wanted. So I guess I must have passed the behavioral portion of the interview, huh?

Resume Writer could also provide you a lot of information on this topic. I think she worked for SWA at one time (?), and she knows a lot about HR and hiring practices in general.

 

[burnsst]

Blzr,

That is not true. I know 3 guys turned down by SWA and hired by AirTran!