Comparing hiring practices--Who is doing it right?

[WillowRunVortex]

"Tell me about the time you had a crush on your mother. How did you handle it?"

"Who do you like better, your mom or your dad? Why?"

"Do you still or have you ever fried an ant or some small animal with a magnifying glass?"

"If a captain showed up downstairs wearing a dress, what would you say?"

Then.. you have some hot HR girl who purposely shows off her perfectly augmented boobs and legs and then disqualifies you for scoping her out.

"So Mr. Peckerwood, what makes you a great candidate for XYZ Airlines given the fact that your suit went out of style 3 months ago?"

A chief pilot or a current line pilot can evaluate your people skills just fine. After all, it won't be your lovely Hooters-waitress-turned-HR-interviewer disciplining you (unfortunately) if you screw up. It'll be your hairy Chief Pilot with a bad breath. Hence.... I don't think HR people should be around for interviewing pilots.

But then again, that's just my .02 cents.

I think these are direct questions from UAL, seriously. Isnt this a load of crap the more you think about it? Why are we letting that place survive?

 

[Spooky 1]

CAL hiring experience way back in time

I was furloughed from Western Airlines and on a military leave at the same time this happend back in the early sixties. After I had been working at WAL for about a month or so, and couple of friends of mine had gotten on at CAl and were given B707/720 SO assignments right out of training. So using the grass is greener appraoch to life I went over and applied to CAL. The woman in employment, this was before anyone had heard of HR, was very nice her name was Mike Dalton, go figure. The whole preemployment process was sliker than snot. She said that since I was DC6 qualified I would probably go directly to DEN where CAL and UAL had an interchange going with the DC6. Also I would get checked out in the Viscount as an F/O. Well this was not the LAX B707/720 position that I thought would be mine for taking so after a day or so I called and politely said that I was withdrawing my application to which she said she was sorry, CAL was a great airline with a great future and she was sorry that I was not going to be a part of it.

Fast forward two+ years, and I am in the same employment office asking for that job that I had turned down earlier. My comtemporaries were all B707/720 FO's by now with Capt slots right around the corner. Some guys were making Capt on the Boeing with as little as three years service in those days. Well Ms. Dalton was still there and said she actually remembered me from before. She said we can expidite this application and after about an hour or so of filling out paper work she said I would have to go down and see Capt. Stubbens for final review and approval. In those days Tarpy Tailors maintanined a uniform store right in the CAL GO and I was tempted to drop in and order my uniform before even seeing Capt. "Red" Stubbens. Big Mistake! I knew of Stubbens from friends who worked at CAL at the time. He was fire beathing Marine Col. who was notorious for ripping ass when it need to be ripped. I entered his office and sat down while he looked my application over. Then he spoke! He said words to this effect, "You did not want us two years ago, we don't want you now. You are not even qualified to be a CAL pilot, now get out of my office". He might have said get the "hell" out of my office. I was numb and seriously suicidal for a moment as I left the parking lot.

Later as the fortunes of CAL subsided and the bitter experiences of Lorenzo were heaped upon this pilot group, I silently said oh thank you Capt. Red Stubbens for saving me from a fate worse then death. I later worked at Flying Tigers, Pan Am, back to Western and finally at Delta. Of all those, I probably would be better off today had I stayed at the Tigers although my career path has been truly golden with but a few opportunites to have really screwed up and it was not because I was any smarter that the next guy. Just a lot luckier!

 

[FlyBoeingJets]

I'm thinking as an airline gets bigger it becomes impossible for the chief pilot and chief of training to do interviews. Too many.

Then they hire an HR staff to assist. Not to mention the HR staff is cheaper.

This last part got out of control at UAL and DAL. UAL fired the infamous good cop, bad cop team in 1999.

DAL's psych doctor went off the deep end. DAL subsequently called folks failed by this guy and hired them over the phone. My bud was already at FedEx and turned DAL down. Best thing that ever happened to him.

 

[semperfido]

spook--great story
fido

 

[canyonblue737]

xtwapilot
Agreed! I have always thought it an insult that non-pilots bear so much weight in hiring pilots.

At SWA out of 4 interview phases 3 of them are run by a total of 4 pilots who will see you. you only are interviewed by one "HR" person. then the results of all of that, plus pilot LORs are sent to a decision board made up almost totally of chief pilots and perhaps one "HR" person.

 

[WillowRunVortex]

I agree with megadeth on this one. Why the hell should I go out and spend $6000-$10000 of my money for a SHOT at SWA? I know it's a good place to work, but it's not THAT good. How many guys out there have spent that money and SWA has said 'sorry!!", or have not even called them? I don't have a problem with them requiring a 737 type to work there, but I do have a problem with them requiring it for an interview. As far as I know, they technically don't, but the only way I would ever spend that kind of money was if I had already been hired and were on my way there.

I think your info is outdated. You have to have the type when you show up for training, after your hired.

 

[capt. megadeth]

I think your info is outdated. You have to have the type when you show up for training, after your hired.

Yeah but your chances of getting an interview without the type is slim to none.

 

[:-)]

At SWA out of 4 interview phases 3 of them are run by a total of 4 pilots who will see you. you only are interviewed by one "HR" person. then the results of all of that, plus pilot LORs are sent to a decision board made up almost totally of chief pilots and perhaps one "HR" person.

That's great, except for this. If the People Department interviewer downs you, you'll never get to the pilots on the decision board.

 

[canyonblue737]

That's great, except for this. If the People Department interviewer downs you, you'll never get to the pilots on the decision board.

i don't think so. i believe if any 1 person during the interview "downs you" you can still get hired provided the rest think you did well and you have good LORs. after all the decision board has to come to a "decision" and that means they aren't only hiring the folks who had all 4 pilots and 1 PD person give you a thumbs up.

 

[typhoonpilot]

While I'll agree that HR has become a necessity in this day and age to make sure that all the legalities are followed, I'll disagree that they need to be in there doing the actual interviewing. I've had quite a few interviews in the last decade and a half. The good ones never involved HR until the decision was made to hire me.

Example one:

Walked into an FBO that had a Bandeirante parked out back. Walking down the staircase is an old colleague of mine. I say, " hey Gordon, how's it going ? You wouldn't have anything to do with that Bandit back there would you ? " Yes, actually I do, he says. Wouldn't need any pilots for it would you ?. Yes, actually, we have a class starting Monday, can you be here ? ( note, this was on a Friday ). Yes, I can.

See, interviewing doesn't need to be difficult or involve HR.

Example two:

Friend and I walk into Great American Airways office at the Reno airport. Chat with the D.O. about their operation ( we both flew the DC-9 at USAir ). Have a nice chat, tell him we flew the -9 and would be interested in a job if one comes along. Nothing then, but 6 months later I get a call from my friend. He says that GAA is hiring 1 Captain and 2 F.O.s. "I'm one of the F.O.s and you're the other", he says.

Again, interviewing doesn't need to be hard or involve HR.

Example three:

Foreign airline comes to the States looking for 12 American pilots. The " interview " is a sim assesment in the MD-80 sim in Seattle. About 45 minutes of NDB work in 30 knot winds. Take-off, fly a SID with two NDB's in it; hold at an NDB; NDB approach to a go-around; NDB approach to a landing. Afterwards the deputy D.O. says to my friend and I ( same one from example two ). " You come Taiwan ".

Still no HR.

Example four:

Job in Taiwan is about to end so I call some acquaintances at Boeing and ask if they need any pilots. A month later get a call from them saying to come in for an interview. Interview is with the Chief Pilot, a retired Delta MD-11 Captain. We chat about flying in Taiwan and other stuff and then have long discussion on whether or not I'll go back to USAir one day. I promise him I'll stay as long as the assignment they are hiring me for requires. He decides on the spot to hire me and then sends me to HR to get a drug test.

Sum of HR involvement here, sending me to the drug test and processing some paperwork. This at a Fortune 50 company that really need to watch their legalities.


Example five:

North American in 1995. Went to New York and had a chat with the chief pilot and MD-80 fleet chief. Then they took me in to see the owner and we had a short chat. Got hired but turned it down to go to Taiwan, the chief pilot telling me if things didn't work out in Taiwan that I could always give him a call. Very classy outfit.

Again, not an HR person in sight.


So you see, HR really doesn't need to be involved until the decision to hire you has been made. Yea, they may need to brief the interviewers on the things not to ask to keep it legal, but they don't need to be an integral part of the decision process.


TP

 

[densoo]

Next question--how many of these guys do you think pick up extra trips? Dip into open time and grab a trip here or there at straight pay? They may do it sometimes, but more than likely they are tackling a problem on their other job during their time off. In the case of some, they will drop trips to go do more lucrative work than fly jets (hard to imagine, isn't it?)

So...you may or may not want to FLY with these guys, but how does a company like JetBlue (where you get 1.5 rate for hours over 70 hours) or SWA (extra trips picked up pay year 2 pay) or FedEX (if we call YOU for a trip its 1.5 x pay rate) view employee productivity?

Nice one!

 

[SWAdude]

i don't think so. i believe if any 1 person during the interview "downs you" you can still get hired provided the rest think you did well and you have good LORs. after all the decision board has to come to a "decision" and that means they aren't only hiring the folks who had all 4 pilots and 1 PD person give you a thumbs up.

Thats not exactly true. It may be possible but extremely unlikely that you would get hired if one person said no. The process works in such a way that it would not be presented to the board in that way. It can happen, but again, very very unlikely.

The person representing the People Department (SWA's Human Resources) is part of an entire evaluation, but generally speaking, not and individual thumbs up or down.

 

[FlyBoeingJets]

FedEx says the meet and greets are back on....but you can only get one if you have not just a sponsor but one or more well connected sponsors.

Its good for the company, for sure, but how do you young pilots feel about it? C'mon, be honest, this is an anonymous forum. Sure the cost to play is cheap, $50 plus travel and expenses to Memphis x2, but with the odds going the way of Powerball, is it better than the other carriers???

 

[SkiFishFly]

I liked the fact that Air Tran gives you a chance to present yourself and resume in person at a job fair. Many folks (including myself) have gotten interviews this way without knowing someone on the inside. I view this as giving folks a fair chance at securing an interview based on who they are, not who they happen to know.

 

[Caveman]

FedEx/UPS: Good ol' boy network in the extreme. Whether or not I know someone there has no bearing on whether I'm qualified and meet the experience requirements to get an interview. There is a huge difference between a LOR to recommend you during the interview and 3 LORs, a sponsor and a 'informal' meeting with the CP just to get an interview. The thing that kills me about the requirement to 'know' someone at these carriers is that it's a sham. The intent is probably to interview only folks that they have a pretty good idea of what they are getting. What it has turned into is my brother's girlfriend's aunt's babysitter's stepmom lives next to a woman whose father is a FedEx pilot. Good to go! What a crock.

SWA/AirTran/jetBlue: Once you meet their arbitrary minimums the interview is basically a relaxed conversation with a couple of employees. They already know you are qualified and they just want to get to know you. TMAAT is a much better way to evaluate an established professional aviator than seeing if he/ she can regurgitate some meaningless bit of FAR trivia. SWA just needs to get rid of that ridiculous type requirement. I know, I know. It's not 'required' anymore. Wink, wink.

Any of these companies can do whatever they want and use whatever criteria they want. It's a free country, but the original post asked for comments on what worked and doesn't work. All of these companies are hiring good people. I just think some of the requirements are not necessary and probably eliminate some awfully good candidates for no valid reason. Just my 2 cents.

 

[FlyBoeingJets]

Good point Caveman. This is a messy subject. I know those who were turned down by SWA and picked up by FedEx. I also know those who wanted to be at FedEx but couldn't get an interview and ended up at SWA or UPS.

If some of the best pilots can't even get an interview at FedEx then, by definition, they aren't screening for the best. They are screening for good enough if you know the right people. Not saying that is bad, just is. I also know some of the best only apply to UPS and/or FedEx so not all the best even consider SWA, Airtran or JetBlue. And vice versa.

It appears low cost is best for the company as long as safety is not an issue, and it looks like it isn't.

So, for saving company funds on folks leaving for greener pastures, FedEx may have the lead on hiring. But SWA has a shorter training syllabus and they don't switch airplanes like FedEx folks do. There is no need for special move packages and man hours spent figuring out if new hires can go to certain airframes.

Is it cheaper to interview all qualified candidates to get the best who apply (and lose a few to other jobs) or hire only the secret handshake, ultra loyal types? I'm betting the interview all qualified option and fewer training cycles is the cheaper option. But I have no data to support it...yet.


But I did start this thing with which one is doing it right. Perhaps a poor choice of words. There seems to be no right answer. We all like to think our pilot group is the best and that would seem to be the right answer, but I think cheap and very safe is management's right answer.

 

[Ski-N-Fly]

In my opinion, I feel that the Hooters restaurant chain has the best hiring practice. Their wait staff has a very professional demeanor that is unprecedented.

 

[federico]

WWW.AVIATIONINTERVIEWS.COM LETS HOPE NOBODY
GOES TO THE CATHAY PACIFIC-NASA SYSTEM
​

,

 

[Caesar]

The best interview? I liked the one where they paid me and had a cocktail party!

No joke, some will know

 

[walden]

fuhgeddaboutit