Comair's got a T.A.

[spinproof]

Really? Make sure the Counsel that told you that practices LAW and not ALPA Politics. Please elaborate....

Look, I don't want to see ALPA wiped off the face of the planet either, but even you and Prater have to admit that gutting the Constitution to encourage predatory bargaining was not consistent with ALPA's fiduciary duty to its members at express carriers. The destruction of Comair was predicted in this litigation and the fact that events have played out EXACTLY as Dan Ford told us they would in 1999 and 2000 really supports the fact that he knew what he was writing about.

ALPA putting a $210 million dollar bargaining credit on our flying and arguing in favor of "operational integration" at Comair doesn't help their case either.

P.S. He11 Yes Prater will sign this agreement. What would it signal to the Delta pilots if he didn't? Is ALPA going to shut down Delta? I didn't think so.

Was Prater there when Duane Woerth had Cake and Ice Cream with the Continental Scabs?

Save your breath Fins, this guy and many like him, not only drinks the ALPO cool aide he helps make it!!!!! His reponse will be "you're wrong on so many levels"...what ever that means.

 

[jppt2000]

NetJets would certainly be an excellent option - it's a career position and they treat their employees extremely well.


The 121 Carriers like 121 pilots. If your aspiration is still with the airlines, you need to stay in the 121 environment. Good contacts MIGHT overcome this, but at many carriers Part 121 PIC is a requirement - 91 or 135 doesn't cut it.

LMAO! Where in the world did you come up with that generalization?
Blind leading the blind IMHO.

 

[N2264J]

The three "causal factors" I listed were relative to the current situation. I'm pretty sure CMR wasn't in Chapter 11 when the PID was being discussed. The PID "event" was followed by a lot of other events...such as an 89-day strike...and a new Commercial Agreement with Delta.

Yeah, you missed one.

While Woerth and Giambusso were walking the Comair picket line making political theater for the consumption of Comair pilots and their families, behind the scenes at the Delta bargaining table, the mainline pilots were trying their best to restrict our growth and take our flagship which has the chilling affect of inhibiting what bargaining leverage we may have had at Delta.

Implicit message to management: these guys are just fodder - even to their own union.

Management hasn't forgotten that message.

 

[Occam's Razor]

Keep sending your checks into the RJDC. Those lawyers need the money...big yacht payment due in April!

If anything you suggest was indeed correct, the pilots of Comair would not have been able to wage a successful, ALPA-wide supported, strike. The result of that strike led to a very strong contract.

Blame whoever who want, but please keep the timeline and critical facts straight.

 

[~~~^~~~]

Keep sending your checks into the RJDC. Those lawyers need the money...big yacht payment due in April!

If anything you suggest was indeed correct, the pilots of Comair would not have been able to wage a successful, ALPA-wide supported, strike. The result of that strike led to a very strong contract.

Blame whoever who want, but please keep the timeline and critical facts straight.

OK, and as a result of mainline's predatory bargaining that encouraged management to put Comair's flying out to bid that contract is gone.

and the contract the Comair pilots did sign was pretty much what they walked out the door over to begin with. The 401K match was changed to benefit the more senior guys, but what else changed from pre to post strike.

It has always been my thought that the Comair strike had much more to do with ALPA showing management how tough they were in the Delta 2000 contract negotiations and management responding to a pi$$ing contest in kind. It was a Delta / ALPA strike by proxy.

and be careful what you wish for, Mike Haber does not have a boat that I've ever heard of, but if you ever saw him you would prefer him in a three piece suit, not a bathing suit....

 

[N2264J]

Originally Posted by N2264J
You're catching on.

Yes, apparently your delusional paranoia is contagious.

By the way, how's that Brand Scope workin' out for ya?

It was ALPA's highest priority.

Let's review:

Pinnacle - Colgan
Mesaba - Big Sky
Northwest - Mesaba
Northwest - Compass
Compass - Kevin Bacon

So do you think Pinnacle will ever have any meaningful bargaining leverage -ever again?

 

[Lear70]

You forgot one.

Kevin Bacon - PCL. He finished GIA last month and is PCL's latest new-hire.

6 degrees of it...

 

[InclusiveScope]

Keep sending your checks into the RJDC. Those lawyers need the money...big yacht payment due in April!

If anything you suggest was indeed correct, the pilots of Comair would not have been able to wage a successful, ALPA-wide supported, strike. The result of that strike led to a very strong contract.

Blame whoever who want, but please keep the timeline and critical facts straight.

Ahhh.... Occam, still blowing the ALPA horn are ya.... The CMR strike wasn't as "successful" as you claim. At ASA we flew CMR aircraft with CMR passengers during the strike. DAL pilots also flew CMR passengers during the strike. It wasn't "struck work" because it wasn't "additional sections", but we both rerouted the passengers thru ATL, DFW, JFK, and SLC. A real union would have done more, but ALPA isn't a real union. It is simply a loose association of independent "fiefdoms" that are competing for the same piece of the pie.... but I suspect you already know that.....

 

[InclusiveScope]

By the way, how's that Brand Scope workin' out for ya?

It was ALPA's highest priority.

Let's review:

Pinnacle - Colgan
Mesaba - Big Sky
Northwest - Mesaba
Northwest - Compass
Compass - Kevin Bacon

So do you think Pinnacle will ever have any meaningful bargaining leverage -ever again?

Well said!

"Brand scope" - Where is it????? Woerth??? McClain??? Wychor???

 

[Occam's Razor]

The CMR strike wasn't as "successful" as you claim.

It wasn't? The pilots involved in it happen to think it was. I think that's what matters. You apparently don't share that opinion. Luckily for all...that doesn't matter.

At ASA we flew CMR aircraft with CMR passengers during the strike. DAL pilots also flew CMR passengers during the strike. It wasn't "struck work" because it wasn't "additional sections", but we both rerouted the passengers thru ATL, DFW, JFK, and SLC.

So the strike ended with CMR pilots leaving aviation due to the lack of a contract at the end of the strike? Oh no...wait!...the strike ended with them making more money than you, and with a better contract! For the sake of historical accuracy, perhaps you should include those facts.

A real union would have done more, but ALPA isn't a real union. It is simply a loose association of independent "fiefdoms" that are competing for the same piece of the pie.... but I suspect you already know that.....

Good point! I'd be hard to be a "real union" with pilots like this doosh
out there bragging about how he wasn't technically a scab...



http://forums.flightinfo.com/showthread.php?p=1261248#post1261248

 

[InclusiveScope]

So the strike ended with CMR pilots leaving aviation due to the lack of a contract at the end of the strike? Oh no...wait!...the strike ended with them making more money than you, and with a better contract! For the sake of historical accuracy, perhaps you should include those facts.

For the sake of historical accuracy Occam, you should compare the "last best final" offer before the strike, and the final agreement. You will find that after 89 days, there is very little difference in the two documents. The main differences are 40-44 seat jets being included in 50 seat pay, and slightly more retirement money for the senior guys. Now that retirement pay and then some has been given back because the CMR pilots lost out in the game of "RFPs and Portfolio whipsawing".

ALPA is losing the game, and the only thing the cheerleaders can do is wave their pom-poms....

 

[Occam's Razor]

For the sake of historical accuracy Occam, you should compare the "last best final" offer before the strike, and the final agreement. You will find that after 89 days, there is very little difference in the two documents.

The decision was made by the Comair pilots. You are in no position to judge them, their actions, or their priorities.

You didn't enter that arena. As a consequence, Comair pilots had a better contract than yours. They chose to strike rather than accept the final offer from their management.

You?

Oh, that's right...you did what you could to undermine their efforts. That helps you make a stronger argument that ALPA doesn't work.

Now THAT'S irony.

 

[InclusiveScope]

The decision was made by the Comair pilots. You are in no position to judge them, their actions, or their priorities.

You didn't enter that arena. As a consequence, Comair pilots had a better contract than yours. They chose to strike rather than accept the final offer from their management.

You?

Oh, that's right...you did what you could to undermine their efforts. That helps you make a stronger argument that ALPA doesn't work.

Now THAT'S irony.

They made the right decision, I'm not questioning that. However a real union would have shut down the corporation, ie. Delta Air Lines, Inc. They did the best they could given the position they were put in by ALPA and the DAL MEC.

We did undermine their efforts as did every other pilot who flew CMR airplanes, and CMR passengers thru different hubs. I know ALPA doesn't work....

 

[N2264J]

You? Oh, that's right...you did what you could to undermine their efforts. That helps you make a stronger argument that ALPA doesn't work. Now THAT'S irony.

I think it's really inappropriate for you to accuse Inclusive of undermining our efforts. In my view, the members of the 2000 BOD, who fiddled while this thing was starting to burn, despite numerous written and verbal warnings, undermined our efforts. The piloting profession needed much more decisive and immediate action than another toothless committee.

Mainline pilots who got consessionary contract credits from the company for actually driving flying off the property and out of the union, undermined our efforts by sabotaging what bargaining leverage we had. Allowing and facilitating alter ego airlines to proliferate like bunnies, undermined everybody.

Trying to lay the blame at Inclusive's feet is just silly. ALPA is a disaster and the mainliners who run it made it so.

 

[Occam's Razor]

I think it's really inappropriate for you to accuse Inclusive of undermining our efforts.

That's why I didn't...he did.

He wrote: "At ASA we flew CMR aircraft with CMR passengers during the strike."

In my view, the members of the 2000 BOD, who fiddled while this thing was starting to burn, despite numerous written and verbal warnings, undermined our efforts. The piloting profession needed much more decisive and immediate action than another toothless committee.

Why? Because you felt really strongly about it? Think there might have been some differing opinions on the topic within ALPA? Not to burst your bubble here, but your personal opinion on all issues might not be the same opinion held my most ALPA members. In the case of some issues, such as Age 60, ALPA has gone to the trouble of surveying the membership to see how many of us disagree with your personal opinion.

Mainline pilots who got consessionary contract credits from the company for actually driving flying off the property and out of the union, undermined our efforts by sabotaging what bargaining leverage we had. Allowing and facilitating alter ego airlines to proliferate like bunnies, undermined everybody.

This your first day at Capitalism School? First, the Comair strike was in 2001, and followed successful contract negotiations at mainline carriers such as UAL and DAL which were not, if you'll recall, concessionary contracts. In fact, they were the opposite of concessionary. Second, if you want to look at the genesis of self-serving practices, you'll have to go further back than 2000. You'll need to go back to the first jet contracts at the traditional feeder airlines to get a clear picture of what one group will do at the expense of others. That was not a "mainline" issue. That took place in your living room.

Trying to lay the blame at Inclusive's feet is just silly. ALPA is a disaster and the mainliners who run it made it so.

Actually, he laid the blame at his feet. And please feel free to blame "mainliners" for all your problems. It makes it easier to avoid taking any accountability for your own actions and attitude.