Comair will NOT get the 30 Dorniers???

[Stifler's Mom]

Originally posted by General Lee
I thought our contract said we couldn't have a DCI affiliate with anything larger than 70 seats---but I guess they will get around it somehow.

That leaves us with only one option...let's sue ALPA.

 

[N2264J]

Comair will not...

I have heard of J4J in regards to other companies - ACA was admament about not doing this in regards to flying 70 seaters for UAL - no way will this happen with the Airbusses.

When you say ACA was adamant, are you talking about management or the pilots?

The kicker about this scenario is that your MEC may not get the opportunity to say anything about it in your behalf. It could be a deal struck between ACA management, Delta management, and the Delta pilots (ALPA). The US Airways wholly owned MECs were not a party to the negotiations between mainline ALPA and management about their [the wholly owns] future in jets. The quid pro quo for the Delta pilots to adjust their scope and permit ACA to operate Airbusses while remaining a Delta affiliate could be Jets for Jobs.

Now focus - I think we're close to an epiphany here. Are you guys starting to get the gist of the RJDC lawsuit?

 

[GogglesPisano]

Re: Comair will not...

When you say ACA was adamant, are you talking about management or the pilots?

The kicker about this scenario is that your MEC may not get the opportunity to say anything about it in your behalf. It could be a deal struck between ACA management, Delta management, and the Delta pilots (ALPA). The US Airways wholly owned MECs were not a party to the negotiations between mainline ALPA and management about their [the wholly owns] future in jets. The quid pro quo for the Delta pilots to adjust their scope and permit ACA to operate Airbusses while remaining a Delta affiliate could be Jets for Jobs.

Now focus - I think we're close to an epiphany here. Are you guys starting to get the gist of the RJDC lawsuit?

Dude:

Put the crack pipe down. We have a scope clause. End of discussion.

 

[46Driver]

I give up.

A few facts:

1) All flying for ACAI will be done by pilots on the ACAI seniority list.

2) The Dorniers are a long term problem for ACA in the fact that they are both maintenance intensive and their parent company is out of business - getting rid of the Dorniers would be a plus.

3) ACA makes little to no profit from Delta Connection.

4) ACA management does not want labor problems while starting Independence Air.

5) I don't know why you are so fixated on this, but Jets for Jobs is not a factor concerning the Delta Connection side. It was at one time with UAL in regards to getting 70 seaters but UAL pilots would have had to come in at the bottom of the ACA seniority list.

As for the RJDC, all I ever see is how they want to get rid of ACA flying Delta Connection and take away my job so why should I care?

 

[DCitrus9]

from the Aviation daily:

AvCraft President Says 328JET Production To Start Soon
By Lori Ranson
December 12, 2003


The new owner of the Dornier 328JET -- AvCraft Aviation -- predicts restarting production of regional aircraft in the "near term" now that it's sold all but one plane of the 18 white-tails the company acquired when it bought rights to type and production certificates of the smallest jet produced by defunct airframer Fairchild Dornier.

AvCraft President Ben Bartel told reporters yesterday in Washington, D.C., his company could build about 54 planes per year in two factory shifts and 70 using three shifts. He contends building 200 aircraft would make the 328JET program "viable."

Suppliers have also begun building 328JET spares and production parts. Bartel estimated the value of 328JET spares at $120-$140 million and production parts "north of" $100 million.

Citing contract obligations, Bartel couldn't identify operators who have committed to the combined 45 orders and options AvCraft has logged for the 328JET, but noted his company hasn't garnered firm orders from new airlines. Data from aircraft tracker Airclaims show Air Vallee, Gandalf, Great Plains, Hainan, Midwest, Tyrolean and Welcome Air fly 328s. Air Omega, based in Augsburg, Germany, ordered two planes in May.

AvCraft continues to hammer out some service issues with the 328JET, including problems with the plane's electrical systems. Bartel did note shortcomings in the 328JET's range and speed, but said on trips of a "thousand-plus" miles it's about eight minutes behind the Embraer ERJ-135, adding the 328JET had the "volume of a Gulfstream."

Bartel was in Washington yesterday to announce a deal with BAE Regional Aircraft for spares, storage, distribution and logistics covering 328JETs and 328 turboprops in North, Central and South America.

AvCraft plans to house $150 million in spares at BAE Regional Aircraft's Herndon, Va., facility, starting with two shipments this month. BAE Regional Aircraft Senior VP of Customer Support David Speirs said AvCraft's spares would use about 30% of the company's existing space in Herndon.

In a second stage of the agreement, AvCraft will route customer orders through to BAE in Herndon for shipment. Later, BAE and 328JET customers will communicate directly for orders and shipping.

 

[Dave Benjamin]

NYRangers,

I thought that scope was the ONLY thing that the Mesa pilots got in their last contract. Johnny O cant operate an alter-ego carrier over there.

No?

I haven't read their contract but it may state that all flying done by the Mesa air group has to be performed by pilots on the seniority list. Anotherwords multiple certificates may not be prohibited but the flying has to be done by pilots on the Mesa list. Does that make sense?

 

[46Driver]

I haven't read their contract but it may state that all flying done by the Mesa air group has to be performed by pilots on the seniority list. Anotherwords multiple certificates may not be prohibited but the flying has to be done by pilots on the Mesa list. Does that make sense?

That is exactly how it works at ACA. 2 certificates: ACA and ACJet but all revenue flying for ACAI corporation has to be done by pilots on the ACAI seniority lists.

Actually, it goes a little deeper than that at ACA because I think there was an out with the use of the legal term "revenue". I don't have a copy of the contract here but I distinctly remember there was the possibility management could have found a way around our scope if Virgin bought a minority interest. Nothin' is ever as simple as it seems.......

 

[surplus1]

I thought our contract said we couldn't have a DCI affiliate with anything larger than 70 seats---but I guess they will get around it somehow. Very interesting indeed!!?!

I've tried to tell you many times that there are quite a few things that you all think your contract says that exist only in your thinking or because they have not yet been legally challenged.

The legal professions exist because lawyers differ.

 

[FlyComAirJets]

Medflyer responded to my post,

"I don't know why you see this as Comair/DL wasting money. From a financial standpoint, bringing the DoJets on the property will be extremely costly to DL. It's best financially that they stay with ACA....let ACA deal with the training and maintenance costs."

I agree completely with your conclusion but you missed my point.
There are many factors in this contrived process called the RFP. If money was the sole criteria, then of course it would be best if the dORPHANS stayed right where they are.

But despite good financial sense sticking with ACA, DL might want to terminate the agreement anyway. They would be doing it at great expense at a time when they can hardly afford it. They do not want to provide seed money to the next potential LCC like Jet Blue or Air Tran who seem to be eating their lunch these days.

They did it before during our strike and they are stupid enough to do it again. That was my point.

 

[N2264J]

Comair will not...

I give up. A few facts:

1) All flying for ACAI will be done by pilots on the ACAI seniority list.

It depends on how much ACA management wants the Delta
lift. Starting another airline venture would require all the revenue a new Low Cost Carrier could muster. You have 80 or so CL-65s that aren't that good for a LCC because of the high seat-per-mile costs.

So what if ACAI forms another holding company for the Airbuses? Your contract won't cover the new entity. Republic was formed to get around the Chatauqua pilots "No" vote on Jets for Jobs. Freedom and Mid Atlantic were formed to get around a scope clause.

You seem to have a lot of faith in your management to take care of you. Bad ju-ju. Since ALPA signaled management that alter egos were OK with their Jets for Jobs protocol, I suspect all airline managements want at least one alter ego airline to drive down the cost of labor. ACA does not exist in a vacuum.

And by the way, don't get me wrong - I'm not wishing any of this on ACA pilots but there are penalties for a temporary lapse in situational awareness.

As for the RJDC, all I ever see is how they want to get rid of ACA flying Delta Connection and take away my job so why should I care?

Be specific. Where exactly do you see that?

 

[46Driver]

One more time and then I really do give up.

1) ACA would very much like to be rid of the Dorniers.

2) The Delta contract is only marginally profitable at best.

3) It doesn't matter if ACAI forms 1,2, 97, 462, 5764, number of your choice, other holding companies (ACA and ACJet are the 2 operating certificates we have now) -- ALL REVENUE FLYING FOR ACAI MUST BE PERFORMED BY PILOTS ON THE ACAI SENIORITY LIST.

Just what is not sinking in to your brain housing group?

 

[Always deferred]

46Driver,

I think it is a simple case of someone being jealous and wanting to send a poopoo party on those who have recently been adorned with good news. I wouldn't waste my time with them anymore. They're the type who makes up for their sorrow by trying to bring everyone else down.

Frats
AD

 

[GogglesPisano]

Re: Comair will not...

It depends on how much ACA management wants the Delta
lift. Starting another airline venture would require all the revenue a new Low Cost Carrier could muster. You have 80 or so CL-65s that aren't that good for a LCC because of the high seat-per-mile costs.

So what if ACAI forms another holding company for the Airbuses? Your contract won't cover the new entity. Republic was formed to get around the Chatauqua pilots "No" vote on Jets for Jobs. Freedom and Mid Atlantic were formed to get around a scope clause.

You seem to have a lot of faith in your management to take care of you. Bad ju-ju. Since ALPA signaled management that alter egos were OK with their Jets for Jobs protocol, I suspect all airline managements want at least one alter ego airline to drive down the cost of labor. ACA does not exist in a vacuum.

And by the way, don't get me wrong - I'm not wishing any of this on ACA pilots but there are penalties for a temporary lapse in situational awareness.



Be specific. Where exactly do you see that?

Nothing like pulling stuff out of your pooper to try to rain on every else's parade. Your hypotheticals are completely devoid of rational analysis.

1) I don't believe a "holding company" can create another "holding company." Our scope is airtight.

2) Our management really doesn't care about the 328's or the DL side. If they could find a way to be rid of those airplanes with minimal cost, they will, if only to concentrate our resources fully on Independence Air.

3) Have you read the latest analysis of our business plan by UBS Warburg's Richard Ashcroft? It seems at least a few people on The Street are changing their tune about our venture vis-a-vis CRJ's. An better ratio of Airbusses to CRJ's would be nice, to be sure (I see this occuring once we start making cash.)

As far as the "ACA-management-will-make-a-deal-with-Delta-for-a-Jets-for-Job-agreement-because-ACA-so-desperately-needs-the-Delta-agreement" conspiracy theory, I think we can deconstruct that as being the paranoid ramblings of someone who is very strongly against Jets for Jobs/ALPA/another pilot group's success.

BTW: The last thing a new airline (or an airline transitioning to a LCC) needs is an angry pilot group. Labor management-relations have never been this amicable at ACA, both sides have a renewed respect for the other (aero2003.org)

I like the disclaimer at the end about hoping your conspiracy theory doesn't come to fruition and best of luck to all the ACA guys blah blah blah.

Then again, this message board is all about guys pulling things out of their poopers.

 

[House_X]

The USA Today article has no implications on what will happen to the Dorniers. Of course ACA is going to say "we're keeping the contract".

The Dornier is a mystery, located inside an enigma and wrapped up in a conundrum. Who knows what the future will bring.

 

[N2264J]

Comair will not...

Just what is not sinking in to your brain housing group?

What an interesting exercise in communication.

I pose a scenario - an example based on current events to illustrate the thrust and intent of the RJDC lawsuit against
ALPA then ask the question to see if anyone could relate and better understand the core issue.

Incredibly, the thread has turned into highlighting my bitter jealousy toward Independence pilots while picking the scenario apart and avoiding an answer.

You people have a future in politics.