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PCL_128 said:
Keep sending those checks, although I guess they'll have to be a little smaller since you just took a big paycut that even managed to undercut my already-horrible rate.

Have no fear they'll keep coming even if smaller. Don't worry about our being cheaper than you, that won't last for long. You will soon have the chance to return youselves to the cheapeast category that you've been bragging about in the other thread. Just be content they're still letting you play while we find out if NW is willing to go low enough to take all your flying (without you of course).
 
surplus1 said:
Don't worry about our being cheaper than you, that won't last for long. You will soon have the chance to return youselves to the cheapeast category that you've been bragging about in the other thread.

Sorry, ain't gonna happen. You guys may be willing to back down and take paycuts for "growth," but some pilot groups have had enough. The Skywest guys said NO to that pathetic 2% raise, the ASA guys said NO to concessions for growth, and we just said NO to management's pathetic proposal a few weeks ago. Some people still have a backbone.
 
BluDevAv8r said:
I've looked backwards...read all the articles, followed the issues, enjoyed the vitriolic yellow journalism spewed by the RJDC (my view and my view only) and while I believe that all mainline MEC's (including AMR's APA as well as the ALPA MEC's) dropped the ball on the RJ issue over 10 years ago (all jet flying should have remained at those carriers in my view)...that doesn't mean we shouldn't keep trying to curb this problem and manage through it as best as we can. So again, while understanding the past is part of understanding the problem, I choose not to dwell on the past and choose to look forward to the future in dealing with this issue.

-Neal

I see now why you were picked for yet another useless Herndon committee. Have you at least read the scope committee reports from 1995? If so, you are ahead of TW. Speaking of TW, is the BSIC still in business? If so, how will it fit into your committee. I guess that will be a new "joint task force". It will be the BFFDBSCTF, or Bilateral Fee For Departure Brand Scope Committee Task Force. Oh well, when your finished with your report can you send me a copy - I can file it with the rest of the ALPA and IACP reports dealing with this issue. I may need another filing cabinet though as this one is filling up.
 
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Surplus1 said:
You're entitled to your own opinion but thanks for providing a window of opportunity to voice mine. I find that statement not only humourous but extremely naive, especially coming from people who cow-tow to the back stabbing SOB's who, while smiling to your face and taking you to free lunches, spend their time plotting how to piss on your pilot group and cheat you out of your livelihood at every opportunity. [My view and my view only.]

Enjoy your tenure on yet another "new" do nothing committe that is no more than the latest scam and window dressing from that group of entrenched wind bags. About the only thing surprising is that Woerth didn't again choose that lackey TW to chair it once more.

I find it ludicrous that you want to "mange through" what you call a "problem", which in reality is a long-standing scheme to eliminate pilot groups like yours and mine. I give them credit in that they are always able to come up with a crew of Kool Aid drinkers willing to help them plot against their fellows without even realizing it. I would classify those who fall for it not as potential saviors but as Trojan Horses. [Again, my view and my view only.]

There's a sucker born every day.

JoeMerchant said:
I see now why you were picked for yet another useless Herndon committee. Have you at least read the scope committee reports from 1995? If so, you are ahead of TW. Speaking of TW, is the BSIC still in business? If so, how will it fit into your committee. I guess that will be a new "joint task force". It will be the BFFDBSCTF, or Bilateral Fee For Departure Brand Scope Committee Task Force. Oh well, when your finished with your report can you send me a copy - I can file it with the rest of the ALPA and IACP reports dealing with this issue. I may need another filing cabinet though as this one is filling up.

Sorry but I am not going to respond to either of your condescending personal attacks. If you want to debate the issue, drop me a PM. But if you are going to continue to bash me and others, then I'll pass on this "discussion."

-Neal
 
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BluDevAv8r said:
Sorry but I am not going to respond to your condescending personal attacks. If you want to debate the issue, drop me a PM. But if you are going to continue to bash me and others, then I'll pass on this "discussion."

-Neal

Neal, I know the people who are involved in RJDC and everyone of them has supported ALPA and the idea of improving the plight of regional pilots. It was you who has personally attacked every one of these people with the following quote:

"vitriolic yellow journalism spewed by the RJDC"

Whether you like it or not, many of these people "spewing" this information have been ALPA volunteers as MEC Chairmen, Status reps, and Committee Chairmen. They could give tours of the Herndon facility and have given over 40 years of combined ALPA service. Dan Ford was instrumental in the Brasilia Prop. investigation as an ALPA safety member and did some fantastic work that benefited all Brasilia operaters including CoEx. For a member of this new "task force" to personally attack these people is very telling of how this committee is going to work.
 
JoeMerchant said:
Neal, I know the people who are involved in RJDC and everyone of them has supported ALPA and the idea of improving the plight of regional pilots. It was you who has personally attacked every one of these people with the following quote:

"vitriolic yellow journalism spewed by the RJDC"

Whether you like it or not, many of these people "spewing" this information have been ALPA volunteers as MEC Chairmen, Status reps, and Committee Chairmen. They could give tours of the Herndon facility and have given over 40 years of combined ALPA service. Dan Ford was instrumental in the Brasilia Prop. investigation as an ALPA safety member and did some fantastic work that benefited all Brasilia operaters including CoEx. For a member of this new "task force" to personally attack these people is very telling of how this committee is going to work.

Attacking an organization is slightly different than attacking the names and personalities behind them. My judgements about the RJDC are based off of their publications, press releases, and other materials. I have never met any of the people involved in the RJDC...but I am aware of their claims and their publications. I disagree vehemently with the mission statement, claims, and lawsuit of the RJDC. Even if the mission were a valid one in my eyes, the method in which the RJDC is trying to get its point across is where my real angst lies. I'll leave it at that for now.

If you want to continue to have a rational debate, so be it...if you are going to take a stab at me from an anonymous perch, nevermind.

-Neal
 
BluDevAv8r said:
Sorry but I am not going to respond to either of your condescending personal attacks. If you want to debate the issue, drop me a PM. But if you are going to continue to bash me and others, then I'll pass on this "discussion."

-Neal

I can't speak for JoeMerchant. I have no idea who he might be and that is not important to me. The only thing that is important is what he says. The same applies to you, i.e., your identity is irrelevant; your opinions are not.

I've read my post again as well as his and yours. I don't see any "personal attack" in what I wrote any more than I see a "personal attack" in what you wrote or what he wrote. Your's was an attack on the RJDC and it's policies; mine was a counter attack on the ALPA policies. Neither one is "personal". You support ALPA's policies, I support the RJDC; same difference.

If you don't think "vitriolic, yellow journalism" is condescending, then I don't know what is. If you enter the debate over these issues you do so with the full knowledge that the differences of opinion are not casual and the debate will be heated. When you make that kind of statement it will generate a similar response. That's what you got from me, not a personal attack. You are entitled to your opinions on the issues and I am equally entitled to mine. They just happen to be different.

The bottom line is that the issues involved are not going to be resolved in any "committee" no matter what you call it. They are going to be resolved in a court of law. Whoever "loses" isn't going to be happy but the battle will be over.

There is another way to resolve this but the current administration of the ALPA obviously has no intention of doing that. So, unless the administration and its policies change, the solution will have to come from a court. Once the court has delivered its order, no "committee" will matter, and neither will your opinion or mine. Unfortunately, that is the reality of the situation. Either the Association changes its policy and provides fair representation to ALL its members, regardless of their airline affiliation or the litigation will continue to its final conclusion.

The first "committe" formed to deal with these issues tried very hard to make a balanced report and did so. However, that report was repeatedly voted down by 4 airlines, UAL, DAL, NWA and USA, until the final report had been wartered down to meaningless babble. Some call that "democracy", I call it oligarchy. A so-called democracy that does not protect the rights of the minority is doomed to eventual failure, often preceeded by revolution. In my opinion, that's exactly where the ALPA finds itself today.

Four or five large airlines seek to control and dictate to the 35 small airlines. They have decided unilaterally that their rights exceed those of everyone else. Well they don't! Since the dispute isn't being resolved internally, the only recourse is the courts. If the ALPA has in fact complied with the law, then it has nothing to fear. However, whether it has or not is not going to be determined in a "committee" or a "council", it is going to be determined in a court of law.

ALPA can call the litigation "meaningless" and you can call the opinions of the RJDC "vitriolic yellow journalism" to your hearts content. The only thing that really matters is the final decision of the courts.

Meanwhile the ALPA's flawed policies continue unabated, and the number of lawsuits against those actions continues to increase. It is often the polcy of a big corporation to delay litigation (against which it has no true defense) in hopes that the plaintiff will eventually run out of money and the suit will go away. Well, that isn't going to happen this time. That's a risky strategy for a defendant and when it doesn't work the outcome can have very serious ramifications. What is lost could be far worse than what ALPA hopes to gain. That's a big price to pay for the bad policies of one administration.

The problem isn't the institution, it's the people that are running it.
 
Come on, surplus! You know very well that ALPA has plenty of reasons to be delaying this silly lawsuit, and none of it has to do with not having a valid defense. The truth is, the burdon of proof on the part of the RJDC is extremely high. DFR is notoriously difficult to prove. You're fighting an uphill battle, and I guarantee that ALPA isn't delaying because they are worried about having a defense.

ALPA has real battles to fight right now. NWA and DAL are in big fights to preserve their CBAs to the greatest extent possible. NWA could go on strike and end up liquidating in a matter of weeks. Pension reform is a top priority. The list goes on and on. ALPA has been pretty busy for the past 5 years, and your unfounded lawsuit isn't exactly on the top of the priority list since you have very little chance of being successful anyway. This is the real reason that ALPA is delaying. The ALPA legal department has real concerns that affect many thousands of pilots to deal with. Responding to a lawsuit filed by a few malcontent whiners is the least of their concerns.
 
I wonder, PCL, did you ever hear of Duke-Spellacy? How about Bernard v ALPA?. Your tune is a replay of ALPA's during those cases. I can only hope that the outcome is also a replay.

You're right DFR litigation is indeed difficult to win. However, alsmost every day ALPA makes it just a little bit easier.
 
Whitestoneclimb said:
I get so sick and tired of people saying BS like: "I thought it would be better to make $XX / hour than have no job at all. With that mentality, you might as well give up now. Some things are worth fighting for and pilots deserve a fair wage. Making $20 an hour is ludicrous and anyone agreeing to it is a moron. For God sake, stand up for yourselves. Have some dignity.


Point taken, you sexy, sexy man-boy!

By the way, how's that Brand Scope workin' out for ya?
 
BluDevAv8r said:
Attacking an organization is slightly different than attacking the names and personalities behind them. My judgements about the RJDC are based off of their publications, press releases, and other materials. I have never met any of the people involved in the RJDC...but I am aware of their claims and their publications. I disagree vehemently with the mission statement, claims, and lawsuit of the RJDC. Even if the mission were a valid one in my eyes, the method in which the RJDC is trying to get its point across is where my real angst lies. I'll leave it at that for now.

If you want to continue to have a rational debate, so be it...if you are going to take a stab at me from an anonymous perch, nevermind.

-Neal

Neal, I too went back and re-read my post. I don't really see any difference between my attack and your attack. You are attacking RJDC and I am attacking ALPA and whatever the committee de jur is this week. I don't know you personally, and am not attacking you personally. You are however very loyal to ALPA and am what I would consider an "ALPA true believer". That is what ALPA likes to appoint to these do nothing committees. ALPA is being run by politicians, not leaders - their is a huge difference.
 
JoeMerchant said:
Neal, I too went back and re-read my post. I don't really see any difference between my attack and your attack. You are attacking RJDC and I am attacking ALPA and whatever the committee de jur is this week. I don't know you personally, and am not attacking you personally. You are however very loyal to ALPA and am what I would consider an "ALPA true believer". That is what ALPA likes to appoint to these do nothing committees. ALPA is being run by politicians, not leaders - their is a huge difference.

Let's see...you say you aren't attacking me personally yet you also are calling me a "true believer" and a "politician" when you don't know the first thing about me or my history with ALPA nor do you know about my tolerance for "do nothing comittees." Interesting. I simply attacked the RJDC's mission and method. Big difference and if you can't see the difference, oh well...we'll have to agree to disagree.

For your own edification, here is what you said above...the bolded part implies a personal attack in my eyes. Don't worry though...I'm a big boy and have taken my share of jabs over the past few years.

I see now why you were picked for yet another useless Herndon committee. Have you at least read the scope committee reports from 1995? If so, you are ahead of TW. Speaking of TW, is the BSIC still in business? If so, how will it fit into your committee. I guess that will be a new "joint task force". It will be the BFFDBSCTF, or Bilateral Fee For Departure Brand Scope Committee Task Force. Oh well, when your finished with your report can you send me a copy - I can file it with the rest of the ALPA and IACP reports dealing with this issue. I may need another filing cabinet though as this one is filling up.
 
JoeMerchant said:
Neal, I too went back and re-read my post. I don't really see any difference between my attack and your attack. You are attacking RJDC and I am attacking ALPA and whatever the committee de jur is this week. I don't know you personally, and am not attacking you personally. You are however very loyal to ALPA and am what I would consider an "ALPA true believer". That is what ALPA likes to appoint to these do nothing committees. ALPA is being run by politicians, not leaders - their is a huge difference.

Save wear and tare on your keyboard. You will never convience them of the folly of their allegiance. To some it's hard to tell whose kool aid is better! Managements or ALPA's!

When there's an argument over characterizing someone as an "Alpa true believer" and this is somehow name calling, then you are dealing with a contrarian and your point is lost.

The point you make above is dead on! Your verbal adversary believes opposite. Hence the fractured Comair pilot groups dilemma.

The Comairs MEC's handling of the latest LOA is irresponsible and reprehensible. Leaving the people whom depend on their leadership twisting in the wind. This, to me, shows ALPA's true colors for all to see!
 
BluDevAv8r said:
For your own edification, here is what you said above...the bolded part implies a personal attack in my eyes. Don't worry though...I'm a big boy and have taken my share of jabs over the past few years.

I see now why you were picked for yet another useless Herndon committee. Have you at least read the scope committee reports from 1995? If so, you are ahead of TW. Speaking of TW, is the BSIC still in business? If so, how will it fit into your committee. I guess that will be a new "joint task force". It will be the BFFDBSCTF, or Bilateral Fee For Departure Brand Scope Committee Task Force. Oh well, when your finished with your report can you send me a copy - I can file it with the rest of the ALPA and IACP reports dealing with this issue. I may need another filing cabinet though as this one is filling up.


Attacking an organization is slightly different than attacking the names and personalities behind them. My judgements about the ALPA are based off of their publications, press releases and other materials. If that sounds familiar, those were your own words, I just replaced RJDC with ALPA. "Useless Herndon committee" is slightly nicer than "vitriolic yellow journalism spewed by the RJDC" Either we both made personal attacks, or neither of us made personal attacks - they were the same type of attack. You personally are probably a great guy. I would probably enjoy having a beer with you. The union and this new committee you are on has become a truly useless organization in my opinion.
 
COpilot said:
Surplus,
Excellent point! A pilot at any airline is going to look out for only ONE person. Might as well accept this law of nature, and wait for the industry to hit bottom.

Surplus' post outlined that basically every pilot group has made concessions, lost their jobs, or both. There is no sign of it slowing.

I wonder, is there a bottom?
 
Wrong button

see below
 
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There is a bottom; the lower end airlines like Pinnacle have to up the ante to fill classes. They can not lower their minimums anymore, they are now offering signing bonuses, hotels, and a stipend. Economic pressure works on both ends. Soon they may have raise wages to attract pilots, which is raising the bar.
 
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surplus1 said:
I believe Horizon is the best paying "regional" at present. If you went there and start in a turboprop, it will take you 3-5 years to make that. If you start in the CRJ-700 you could do it in two years. Those are the numbers.

To be accurate, Horizon doesn't pay FO's for the aircraft they are flying. They pay them for what their seniority can hold. In short, 2-year CRJ FO's are making $32/hr because they are actually receiving Dash-8 pay due to their relatively low 2 year seniority. Currently, it requires 5+ year as an FO to be able to draw CRJ pay. Upgrades are at 6 yrs.
 
well, i am unsure about ripping union leadership but here it goes.......why doesn't our great fearless ALPA leaders set some sort of bottom for pay at the regional level......setting a bottom level would stop some of the whip saw and the race to the bottom....i talked to our MEC chairman about it, he said they had a regional conference and that was brought up...but once agan, i got the brush off talk about it....want every regional pilot out there to talk to his or her MEC about setting a standard...min pay rate.....livable.....fair etc....a starting point for all negotiations....and if any alpa regional carrier votes for less, all members are kicked out of ALPA and their banned from further membership (IE future mainline jobs)

would this fly in todays world...am i living in a dream world.....maybe....since i have seen two pilots, one of which was a frined of mine say....if we had the lowest rates, imagine how many new airplanes we would get.........and fast upgrades.....What the F*&^! most of us at XJ will not accept any concessions in our fake bankruptcy......no matter what...... and as for COMAIr i think they have done the most for our industry, that strike showed that at least one pilot group had the balls to stand up for their rights to make a living at the regional level. Too bad every other Mesa wanna be in this industry stabbed them in the back......and lowered the bar when they were just beginning to raise it.

FLY the LINE, even if its crooked or covered in snow......
 

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