Comair to furlough 500??!!

[jetflyer]

Scenario:

Comair is forced to take a paycut of say 15%, which would be lower than CHQ, right?

Now Delta decides to begin cancelling CHQ's contracts over time and grow Comair because Comair's costs are now lower. This leads to CHQ furloughs.

Would CHQ guys vote to take a paycut so that their flying wouldn't be replaced by Comair??

Just wondering, but I think the F.O.s who took the job at CHQ for their promised 1 1/2 year upgrades would all vote for a pay cut.

Jet

 

[FurloughedAgain]

I agree.

"I think the F.O.s who took the job at CHQ for their promised 1 1/2 year upgrades would all vote for a pay cut."

I think you're absolutely right. The proof comes from their own pilot's website at www.chqlounge.com

There is a thread in which pilots were discussing the need to raise first-officer payrates and treat them like professionals. (the assumption being that if they're treated like professionals, they'll act like it)

The following posts concluded that thread:

J31Guy: "Let's not hire F/Os. Let's hire future Captains -- and treat them like it."

sleddriver77:"Can we please start PAYING them like it???"

J31Guy:"That's up to you my friend. Next time Brian comes knocking with some fantastic GROWTH opportunities if we would just agree to XXX... What will you do?
If we roll over everytime he dangles a shiny jet in front of us then we will get what we deserve."

sleddriver77:[FONT=verdana, arial, helvetica]"What would anybody do? I'm all about as many shiny new jets as we can cram on property, until I upgrade. After that, it's all about the money. Sheesh, did I really havta explain that for ya?"

[/FONT][FONT=verdana, arial, helvetica]Need we say more?
[/FONT]

 

[scopeCMRandASA]

Wow, I didn't know spelling and grammer mattered on this board. Shoot we should just disregard about 95% of the posts then!

Here is the basis for my comments:

-CMR pilots strike for 89 days in 2001 just before 9/11.
-CMR pilots achieve a contract that can only be rivaled by the likes of AWAC at the time.
-CMR pilots wear their ALPA pin with star atop for their achievement, as they should, but at the same time start waving their "holier than thou" finger at the rest of us.
-Delta furloughs and several CMR pilots with their strike pins and RJDC stickers say "I told you so!"
-In 2003 the CMR MEC stepped on their wankers by publically stating that they did not support the hiring of furloughed DAL pilots while allowing them to retain their re-call rights, unless of course, the DAL MEC would be willing to re-negotiate scope.
-Later in 2003 the infamous Request For Proposal (RFP) emerged from the office of Fred Buttrell and the CMR pilots were asked for concessions by Radamacher. ASA pilots were 1 year in to their negotiations and were asked to take a 2 year break from negotiations. Both the ASA and CMR pilots collectively told management to pack sand.
-RFP results came in the form of nothing for CMR and 25 planes for ASA thus proving that it is not necessary to bid for flying.
-In late 2004 CMR's Sabre system takes a dump and Randy is the fall guy, Fred Buttrell steps in.
-Early 2005 the ASA pilots recieve a letter and flight bag sticker from the CMR MEC pledging their support for our negotiations that have exceeded 2 years.
-Days after the ASA pilots recieve the support from the CMR MEC the ASA MEC recieves a phone call from the CMR MEC stating that they (CMR) has reached a TA for a pay freeze so as to secure more 70 seat flying from DALPA concessions. No consultation with the ASA MEC, just a "this is what we are doing." So much for unity!
-The TA passes with 61% in favor. 61% of the CMR pilot group also voted to get rid of any integrity they had but still flash their strike pin while thumping their chests and screaming "We held the line, where were you?"
-Mesa comes to DCI.
-ASA transfers 10 50 seat airframes to CMR (I flew the first one N862AS to MCO for ya!) so as to comply with provisions of the new CMR LOA.
-ASA is sold to Skywest.
-DL files BK and drags CMR in with them.
-CMR announces reductions and the CMR pilots cry foul and say that it is everyone elses fault in the industry.

This last part is where I have a problem. You guys fought the fight you thought needed to be fought and you got hosed. Stop blaming others and look inside your leadership for the blame because they sold you a $hit sandwich and you took a big ole bite out of it.

That was a nice synopsis, Plug. Remember, not all of us that were at CMR and ASA had the mentality that you describe above. We got our time, and left. I will be watching to see if Delta really follows throught with this, or if it is just grandstanding in order to extract concessions from the Delta pilots. No matter what happens, the Comair pilots made their own bed. They must now sleep in it.

Glad to be gone

 

[bvt1151]

Wow, I didn't know spelling and grammer mattered on this board. Shoot we should just disregard about 95% of the posts then!

Here is the basis for my comments:

-CMR pilots strike for 89 days in 2001 just before 9/11.
-CMR pilots achieve a contract that can only be rivaled by the likes of AWAC at the time.
-CMR pilots wear their ALPA pin with star atop for their achievement, as they should, but at the same time start waving their "holier than thou" finger at the rest of us.

Some people see this as holier than thou, most see it as the Comair pilots asking the pilot groups who made promises during Comair's strike to live up to their end of the bargain. I've yet to see one live up.

-Delta furloughs and several CMR pilots with their strike pins and RJDC stickers say "I told you so!"
-In 2003 the CMR MEC stepped on their wankers by publically stating that they did not support the hiring of furloughed DAL pilots while allowing them to retain their re-call rights, unless of course, the DAL MEC would be willing to re-negotiate scope.

You're leaving out the part where Malone tells the Comair MEC what the Comair MEC's policy will be, or else they'll use misleading publicity to create the illusion Comair pilots want Delta pilots to furlough. The Comair MEC told them to take their threats elsewhere under the assumption that pilots, as a whole, were intelligent enough to find the truth. I guess it takes Delta pilots a little longer than most.

-Later in 2003 the infamous Request For Proposal (RFP) emerged from the office of Fred Buttrell and the CMR pilots were asked for concessions by Radamacher. ASA pilots were 1 year in to their negotiations and were asked to take a 2 year break from negotiations. Both the ASA and CMR pilots collectively told management to pack sand.

Not exactly. Delta had 50-seaters they owned that they were going to use to increase the value of one of the wholly-owns. ASA and Comair were bidding against one another, and the ASA pilots were cheaper. How long do you have to go through contract negotiations before it becomes a concession itself?

-RFP results came in the form of nothing for CMR and 25 planes for ASA thus proving that it is not necessary to bid for flying.
-In late 2004 CMR's Sabre system takes a dump and Randy is the fall guy, Fred Buttrell steps in.
-Early 2005 the ASA pilots recieve a letter and flight bag sticker from the CMR MEC pledging their support for our negotiations that have exceeded 2 years.
-Days after the ASA pilots recieve the support from the CMR MEC the ASA MEC recieves a phone call from the CMR MEC stating that they (CMR) has reached a TA for a pay freeze so as to secure more 70 seat flying from DALPA concessions. No consultation with the ASA MEC, just a "this is what we are doing." So much for unity!

The CMR and ASA MEC's met several times to discuss the LOA, but of course the ASA MEC wasn't happy about it. What they aren't telling you is that Comair's 70-seaters were on the chopping block, and there was nothing they could have done to keep them on the property. In fact the ASA MEC couldn't guarantee they'd refuse to fly Comair's 70's if Delta transferred them. If you don't believe aircraft can be transferred that quickly, look at how quickly ASA jets were transferred to Comair when the Independence jets showed up. Regardless, Skywest was in the market for 70-seat flying, and had the cash.
Freezing pay, at the highest pay scale in the industry (second to horizon) was a simple choice to prevent around 300 furloughs. Granted, the furloughs are coming now, but for different aircraft, so the effects would have been cummulative. Comair prevented 300 furloughs, or if you prefer, mitigated the current furloughs from 700 to 400. One thing you can't fault Comair for is protecting their young.

-The TA passes with 61% in favor. 61% of the CMR pilot group also voted to get rid of any integrity they had but still flash their strike pin while thumping their chests and screaming "We held the line, where were you?"

Held the line, how? How's that contract coming? By allowing management to operate you under an ancient contract for so long is concessionary. If you signed a contract in '03, and then took concessions, you would be in the exact same place you're in now. The Comair pilots held out for you as long as they could, but they were about to lose aircraft, and frankly 300 Comair pilots are a priority over the hope that ASA will eventually negotiate a contract. The regional airlines were so dependent upon Comair holding everything up, that they don't know what to do when they can't take advantage of the cheaper contracts. The Comair pilots did more than is asked for the good of the industry, and not one pilot group followed through. You can only be the hero for so long before you become the martyr. Good for the Comair pilots for protecting themselves.

-Mesa comes to DCI.
-ASA transfers 10 50 seat airframes to CMR (I flew the first one N862AS to MCO for ya!) so as to comply with provisions of the new CMR LOA.

And you got 12 aircraft in return. In case the math doesn't work, that's a net increase of 2 aircraft for ASA. You conveniently ommitted that fact.

-ASA is sold to Skywest.

Largely because of ASA's cheap pilot costs relative to Comair

-DL files BK and drags CMR in with them.

Largely because of ASA's cheap pilot costs relative to Comair.

-CMR announces reductions and the CMR pilots cry foul and say that it is everyone elses fault in the industry.

Comair's legs have been effectively cut out from under them. ASA never negotiated that contract the Comair pilots were counting on. You think Comair let down ASA, and while thats all in the opinion of the ASA pilots, they too have let down Comair by allowing their contract to put enormous pressure on Comair. Chautauqua has done the same, although with a new contract, and rediculous FO rates. Comair has seen flying shifted from them for years, although the sector's been growing so the flying shifted was all new flying. Now that the growth has ended, Comair will be losing aircraft. Rumor is they will be going to ASA/Skywest. There is no reason for this other than Comair has more expensive labor contracts. Will you refuse to fly aircraft that are causing 400 furloughs at a fellow ALPA carrier? I'd like to say its time for you to step up, but that time has been over the last three years when you were expected to step up and negotiate a contract, and you failed to do that. The Comair pilots realize they cannot rely on any other pilot group to live up to their promises, so they did what they could (at a very minimal cost by the way) to protect themselves last February. In 2001 Comair stood up in solidarity, and while everybody promised, nobody followed. Now they find themselves all alone on the chopping block, and not only have other carriers shrinked away from their promises to do their part, they're gladly taking aircraft from the carrier they promised to follow. Betrayal at its purest.

This last part is where I have a problem. You guys fought the fight you thought needed to be fought and you got hosed. Stop blaming others and look inside your leadership for the blame because they sold you a $hit sandwich and you took a big ole bite out of it.

The reason Comair is getting hosed is directly related to other carriers. If they would have followed through with the progressively improving contracts they promised, Comair would not be furloughing. Instead, they've settled for far less to secure growth and that quick upgrade. Some haven't even settled yet, but you will. Comair stepped into the fight with everyone saying "we'll be right behind you," and they never came. Now Comair finds itself in the open with none of the promised help, and the enemies are closing in fast. You never retreated, but you never moved forward either. ASA stayed in that comfortable safety area of "old contract" and then blamed Comair for not being able to hold the line all by themselves.

The most sacred thing to Comair pilots, is job security for its pilots. Don't be suprised when CMR shows some anger to ASA/CHQ/MESA for leaving their flank unguarded.

 

[FDJ2]

You're leaving out the part where Malone tells the Comair MEC what the Comair MEC's policy will be, or else they'll use misleading publicity to create the illusion Comair pilots want Delta pilots to furlough.

Malone or Buergey? Malone wasn't the MEC Chairman at DAL at the time. I wonder about the accuracy of your sources when you can't even get the names of the players right.

Quick question BVT. Did the CMR MEC support a policy that would require the resignation of a furloughed pilot's seniority number in 2003 in order to work at CMR and did the CMR MEC change its position on seniority resignation in late 2004?

 

[DrunkIrishman]

Two things here:

1. FB also told CMR that they would get many more airplanes if they signed on the dotted line. Now, it is the opposite of his salespitch. Be careful that FB may be attempting to spread fear in the ranks so that he can get voluntary concessions from the group w/o having the bankruptcy judge force them. This would further make him look like he's in control, therby further stroking his enormous ego. Then again, he's probably right this time.

2. Why are we pilots from ASA/CHQ/CMR/DAL bickering amongst each other when we ought to be uniting to fight our common enemy - management? Divide and conquer couldn't be more successful.

 

[Texx]

1. How long do you have to go through contract negotiations before it becomes a concession itself?

2. Held the line, how? How's that contract coming? By allowing management to operate you under an ancient contract for so long is concessionary.

3. ASA never negotiated that contract the Comair pilots were counting on. You think Comair let down ASA, and while thats all in the opinion of the ASA pilots, they too have let down Comair by allowing their contract to put enormous pressure on Comair.

4. I'd like to say its time for you to step up, but that time has been over the last three years when you were expected to step up and negotiate a contract, and you failed to do that.

5. Betrayal at its purest.

6. The reason Comair is getting hosed is directly related to other carriers.

7. Comair stepped into the fight with everyone saying "we'll be right behind you," and they never came.

8. You never retreated, but you never moved forward either. ASA stayed in that comfortable safety area of "old contract" ....

9. Don't be suprised when CMR shows some anger to ASA/CHQ/MESA for leaving their flank unguarded.

1. We started after 9/11, you guys finish prior. We are still in Section 6 and with the NMB, they dictate the time frame. How long did it take for you guys to get your last contract?

2. Allowing? Read #1, the process.

3. I'm sorry. I didn't know that CMR controls our contract.

4. Failed? Last time I checked we haven't given in and we are still fighting a good fight.

5. PS, JC should read this one.

6. Words of a true professional. The blame game.

7. I'm sorry. Didn't you get my assessment for your 89 day strike? If you didn't want it I would like it back please.

8. Review #1 and read up on the NMB and the process. Opps, you've been there before and should know the process.

9. CMR pilots, that were around when it took place, were mad when DAL bought you and you'll be mad next week. That's part of being a CMR pilot.

I'm not mad at the CMR pilots for voting their LOA. I am disappointed that your JC gave his word that there would be no concession for jets several times.

Life is about actions and consequences.

 

[xjlifer]

If a large percentage of Comair pilots did the PFT route how can they be "holier than thou"?

 

[Tim47SIP]

Round Robin

So what you are saying is the COMAIR folks underbid DAL mainline, who were underbid by ASA, who were underbid by CHQ, and who were underbid by SKW, who will all be underbid eventually by MESA? Got it, roger!


You forgot to complete the circle, and then again underbid by Delta mainline! You got to love this stuff!

 

[JetPilot_Mike]

If a large percentage of Comair pilots did the PFT route how can they be "holier than thou"?

Probably only around 25%, if that, on the Comair list these days are PFT'ers. I myself have over 1100 pilots jr. to me (for now), and I didn't PFT.

Nice try.