Comair to become the "whore of the industry"!!!!!

kngarthur

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Last Thursday, Delta had its first big court hearing. In addition to getting their $2.2 billion DIP
loan approved, Delta received bankruptcy court approval to affirm the ASA and Skywest
Connection Carrier Agreements. What does this mean? First it means that Skywest’s existing 56
CRJ-200 aircraft in SLC are secure from any modifications. Also, ASA’s 104 CRJ-200, 35 CRJ-
700 aircraft and 37 growth CRJ-700 shells are now firm and non-cancelable. The affirmation now
ties up over 50% of the current Delta Connection capacity. That leaves Chautauqua, Mesa and
Comair as the outlet for any surplus small jet units that will be removed from the network. Thus
far it looks like Comair is losing aircraft; however, their management is working hard to restructure
their high labor costs to “re-tool” Comair into a much lower cost regional carrier. They are
seeking labor rate and work rule concessions that will lower their employment costs below what
Mesa currently pays. And Mesa rates are already 5%-7% below our current employment costs.​
 

pipejockey

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What a shame! The airline whose pilots began a radical leap in regional payscales, now possibly becoming the lowest paid once again. I don't think it will happen, but who knows? I would like to have seen where the regionals pay would have gone if it were not for 9-11 which occured only a couple months after Comairs new contract. The only other regional that I know of to sign a new contract in that time was AWAC which was on THE day the event occured, and it looked pretty good!
 

Sioux115

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Horizon got their's just before 9-11 aswell. The effective date is actually 9-13-01. Much of the pay was based on comair. It should be interesting next sept. when our contract comes up for negotiation.
 

Scape112

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kngarthur said:
Last Thursday, Delta had its first big court hearing. In addition to getting their $2.2 billion DIP
loan approved, Delta received bankruptcy court approval to affirm the ASA and Skywest
Connection Carrier Agreements. What does this mean? First it means that Skywest’s existing 56
CRJ-200 aircraft in SLC are secure from any modifications. Also, ASA’s 104 CRJ-200, 35 CRJ-
700 aircraft and 37 growth CRJ-700 shells are now firm and non-cancelable. The affirmation now
ties up over 50% of the current Delta Connection capacity. That leaves Chautauqua, Mesa and
Comair as the outlet for any surplus small jet units that will be removed from the network. Thus
far it looks like Comair is losing aircraft; however, their management is working hard to restructure
their high labor costs to “re-tool” Comair into a much lower cost regional carrier. They are
seeking labor rate and work rule concessions that will lower their employment costs below what
Mesa currently pays. And Mesa rates are already 5%-7% below our current employment costs.



Actually no. Comair is looking to save 17.3 million from the pilot group, which will put the payrates for CMR right around an XJ, ASA rates.
 

BenderGonzales

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Assuming they get all 17.3 million (the judge will be hard-pressed to agree to all of it) --- 17.3 mill / 1700 pilots (after the furlough/attrition) is around $10,000 reduction per pilot.

Thats straight compensation. It assumes no workrule, retirement, vacation, per-diem, etc. The actual number will likely come in much less.
 

xjcaptain

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I agree that recently Comair's contract was something that was above par for most reginals. However, not to rain on the Comair parade, it seems that once again many have very short memories. Anybody else wonder how much Comair set the industry back by being one of the first and largest PFT companies around? Years of PFT, then the same PFT pilots wonder why it is so difficult to attain and keep those industry leading rates. Granted they quit PFT a while back, but many, if not most of the senior captains were among those who dropped the big check. Hopefully it all works out for all the guys at Comair, but I still find it hard to look at Comair as the great inspiration for regionals holding the bar when the bar was held down for years by hiring based on the ability of the new hire to pay the company for the privelage of working.
 
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737 Pylt

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whores??

kngarthur said:
Last Thursday, Delta had its first big court hearing. In addition to getting their $2.2 billion DIP
loan approved, Delta received bankruptcy court approval to affirm the ASA and Skywest
Connection Carrier Agreements. What does this mean? First it means that Skywest’s existing 56
CRJ-200 aircraft in SLC are secure from any modifications. Also, ASA’s 104 CRJ-200, 35 CRJ-
700 aircraft and 37 growth CRJ-700 shells are now firm and non-cancelable. The affirmation now
ties up over 50% of the current Delta Connection capacity. That leaves Chautauqua, Mesa and
Comair as the outlet for any surplus small jet units that will be removed from the network. Thus
far it looks like Comair is losing aircraft; however, their management is working hard to restructure
their high labor costs to “re-tool” Comair into a much lower cost regional carrier. They are
seeking labor rate and work rule concessions that will lower their employment costs below what
Mesa currently pays. And Mesa rates are already 5%-7% below our current employment costs.

Just curious.....Why would a court imposed paycut make cmr pilots whores??
Just asking here because my thoughts are that the title of this thread is a little off base??!!
737
 

PA44Jockey

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Bender, are you from Cincinnati? do you know anyone with the last name Morvik?
 

DrewBlows

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BenderGonzales said:
Assuming they get all 17.3 million (the judge will be hard-pressed to agree to all of it) --- 17.3 mill / 1700 pilots (after the furlough/attrition) is around $10,000 reduction per pilot.

Thats straight compensation. It assumes no workrule, retirement, vacation, per-diem, etc. The actual number will likely come in much less.

Doesn't furloughing 200+ pilots save money as well? Figure 200x$20,000 (conservative). That's $4,000,000. Which means that the remaining pilots are only responsable for aproximately $7,800 each. Fuzzy math? I don't know, but in this senario it appears that those with the most to lose are at the bottom of the list (losing $20,000). I'm not sure what my point is. Maybe I should become an accountant.
 

turbodriver

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Sioux115 said:
Horizon got their's just before 9-11 aswell. The effective date is actually 9-13-01. Much of the pay was based on comair. It should be interesting next sept. when our contract comes up for negotiation.
Don't forget that we are not in the same boat as Comair and all the other regionals that have all their eggs on one basket depending on bankrupt mainline. We aren't going to get shaft as some people would like to think.
 

RJP

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DrewBlows said:
Doesn't furloughing 200+ pilots save money as well? Figure 200x$20,000 (conservative). That's $4,000,000. Which means that the remaining pilots are only responsable for aproximately $7,800 each. Fuzzy math? I don't know, but in this senario it appears that those with the most to lose are at the bottom of the list (losing $20,000). I'm not sure what my point is. Maybe I should become an accountant.
Can anyone in this industry afford to lost $7800? That would mean I'd be taking home about $1k a month after taxes! Sweet. Jack In The Box must have a 401K plan that I will be able to invest in........
 

BenderGonzales

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Yes i'm from CVG (although I no longer live there) and no, I dont know anyone named Morvik.

RJP - Nobody can "afford" to write a $7800 check, but in case you haven't noticed the industry has changed a bit over the last 5 years. Thousands upon thousands of airline pilots have lost six-figure jobs. Captains were downgraded to first officers and THEN gave concessions amounting to tens of thousands of dollars. 30 year retirement plans were terminated leaving 60 year-old men with $20,000/yr "pension". Meanwhile the DC9s, 737-200s, F100s, F28s, etc these folks were flying were quietly replaced with CRJs, ERJs, CR7s, CR9s, E170s, and now E190s...flown by pilots from other companies.

"Fair" went out the window a long time ago. The good news? Most of those hired at Comair in recent years are relatively young and able to start-over (if they choose to remain in aviation). The older you get, the harder it is to pick up the pieces.

For those of you who are members of Kit Darby's little organization, the Dec 03 and Sept 04 issues of his magazine have good articles regarding furlough planning and furlough recovery. I think they're archived on his website.

I know this is a bitter pill to swallow. I've been there before. I wish you and your families the best of luck during this difficult time.
 

Guam360

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yea, what does "Whore" have anything to with the entire issue?

you are an idiot, if anything we all trying survive. not just Comair.

you probably are the one calling airline pilots like Mesa's pilots Scabs, which hasn't anything to with anything.

grow up.

wait and see what happens like everyone else.
 

bvt1151

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Does it not occur to anyone that the Comair pilots have no say in the matter? They are in bankruptcy, an their contract will be decimated at will by the judge.

Watch your choice of words, arthur.



I actually agree with 737 Pylt!!! :D
 
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WSurf

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You do have a say so in this matter! We at Piedmont have been there and done that with the US Airways thinggy!! But this is gonna be a time when you feel you have a loaded gun at your head. If you feel your getting screwed to hard, don't close your eyes and wait for them to pull the trigger. Open your eyes and reach up and grab that gun, Put it up Deltas a$$ and begin firing unil you've emptied the whole clip. Then reload and continue process. :)
Seriously First Comair needs to keep a really good relationship with your Alpa brothers the ASA's pilot group. Since you two are Wo's Delta will try and play you two. Example-- First group to sign off on a concessionary contract (Pilots, FA, and Mechs) will be getting all the new stuff and growing when we exit Chpt 11. Don't fall that that bullsh$t and you and ASA stand strong together.
When they start to neg. your contract, don't be sooooo worried about the pay scales some much. Try and first retain your working contracts rules. Keep the Block or Better, Min. Day, Vaction, etc, etc. Keeping your work rules while taking a hit in pay won't be as bad.
Try and get out of there as painful as you can go. If Delta slaps a crappy contract then say no way... And roll your chances with the Bankrupt Judge!!! This is like stroking a pit bull however. You just don't know if your hands gonna get torn off!!!
Anyways Goodluck!!!! This next couple of years will be tuff....
 

jarhead

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WSurf said:
You do have a say so in this matter! We at Piedmont have been there and done that with the US Airways thinggy!! But this is gonna be a time when you feel you have a loaded gun at your head. If you feel your getting screwed to hard, don't close your eyes and wait for them to pull the trigger. Open your eyes and reach up and grab that gun, Put it up Deltas a$$ and begin firing unil you've emptied the whole clip. Then reload and continue process. :)
Seriously First Comair needs to keep a really good relationship with your Alpa brothers the ASA's pilot group. Since you two are Wo's Delta will try and play you two. Example-- First group to sign off on a concessionary contract (Pilots, FA, and Mechs) will be getting all the new stuff and growing when we exit Chpt 11. Don't fall that that bullsh$t and you and ASA stand strong together.
When they start to neg. your contract, don't be sooooo worried about the pay scales some much. Try and first retain your working contracts rules. Keep the Block or Better, Min. Day, Vaction, etc, etc. Keeping your work rules while taking a hit in pay won't be as bad.
Try and get out of there as painful as you can go. If Delta slaps a crappy contract then say no way... And roll your chances with the Bankrupt Judge!!! This is like stroking a pit bull however. You just don't know if your hands gonna get torn off!!!
Anyways Goodluck!!!! This next couple of years will be tuff....
Your information is a little out of date. ASA is not a Delta Wholly Owned any more. Delta sold ASA to Skywest several weeks ago. Just a heads up for ya there....

Comair is Delta's only wo now.
 

DrewBlows

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WSurf, I agree that the work rules are important to keep. It will be much easier to keep them if we already have them when the next contract negotiations come around. Just a heads up though, ASA is a wholly owned, but their parent company is called Skywest not Delta. So the competition (perceived anyway) is between Comair, Mesa, and Chautauqua (Mesaba, Pinnicle?).
 

FreightNazi

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WSurf said:
You do have a say so in this matter! We at Piedmont have been there and done that with the US Airways thinggy!! But this is gonna be a time when you feel you have a loaded gun at your head. If you feel your getting screwed to hard, don't close your eyes and wait for them to pull the trigger. Open your eyes and reach up and grab that gun, Put it up Deltas a$$ and begin firing unil you've emptied the whole clip. Then reload and continue process. :)
Seriously First Comair needs to keep a really good relationship with your Alpa brothers the ASA's pilot group. Since you two are Wo's Delta will try and play you two. Example-- First group to sign off on a concessionary contract (Pilots, FA, and Mechs) will be getting all the new stuff and growing when we exit Chpt 11. Don't fall that that bullsh$t and you and ASA stand strong together.
When they start to neg. your contract, don't be sooooo worried about the pay scales some much. Try and first retain your working contracts rules. Keep the Block or Better, Min. Day, Vaction, etc, etc. Keeping your work rules while taking a hit in pay won't be as bad.
Try and get out of there as painful as you can go. If Delta slaps a crappy contract then say no way... And roll your chances with the Bankrupt Judge!!! This is like stroking a pit bull however. You just don't know if your hands gonna get torn off!!!
Anyways Goodluck!!!! This next couple of years will be tuff....


WRONG!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
 

rightrudder

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Sioux115 said:
Horizon got their's just before 9-11 aswell. The effective date is actually 9-13-01. Much of the pay was based on comair. It should be interesting next sept. when our contract comes up for negotiation.
I dunno, maybe you guys should take 3 or 4 years to stall negotiations the way George and Ford & Harrison did on your first contract. By then who knows, the industry may be headed in a better direction. They can't force you to negotiate pay decreases expeditiously (unless they file BK).
 

WSurf

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Okay, Yea... Forgot ASA was sold!
 
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