Comair sues FAA, Lexington airport

[400pilot]

What about the taxiway closing that made it look like the taxiway ended whey you got to RW26 (in other words, made it look like it was supposed to look at RW22)?

It didn't look like the taxiway ended. The taxiway was still there. It just had big baracades with reflectors on it. From the RW26 hold short line, you could clearly see them on the other side of rw26. After crossing 26, you needed to make a 30 degree left on to taxiway A5, which was renamed A.

 

[FN FAL]

That's not a good comparison. It is the FAA's policy to have two controllers. Not having one there is most likely a contributing factor. Catching and preventing the error is pretty much the same thing in this case. You are admitting that had there been two controllers, 49 people may not be dead. This among other factors are hard evidence this should not have happened. Yes, it happened because of the flight crew, but there are other major contributing factors.

Sure airline pilots take off from uncontrolled fields. However, usually they are single runway, or at least no general aviation runways at airline airports. These are more contributing factors that if different, could have prevented an accident. Pilots make errors. There are ways to make flying safer that are sometimes ignored. I'm very sorry 49 people are dead.

Fly safe.

More police mens prevent crime and your second paragraph is a baseless generalization as well.

 

[DrewBlows]

It didn't look like the taxiway ended. The taxiway was still there. It just had big baracades with reflectors on it. From the RW26 hold short line, you could clearly see them on the other side of rw26. After crossing 26, you needed to make a 30 degree left on to taxiway A5, which was renamed A.

This is true, but it would be difficult to see the proper taxiway to runway 22 across a 150' runway at night. Throw in some poor lighting* and it would be an easy mistake to make.

*The night before the accident another Comair aircraft ellected to land on runway 4, rather than 22, because of poor lighting. I don't know the details, other than it happened.

 

[400pilot]

This is true, but it would be difficult to see the proper taxiway to runway 22 across a 150' runway at night.

No, it wasn't difficult. I left out of there at 0530 the morning before. Also, RW26 is 75' wide.

The controller cleared us for takeoff before we even reached rw26. More than likely the same thing happened and the Captain just lined up on the 1st runway he got to. Even though the runway itself was unlited, the RW26 sign was lit at the hold short line. Based on that, maybe they did not look at the airport diagram before they taxied. Who knows, I guess we'll see when the cvr transcript is released.

 

[C-141/C-5]

and another thing that mural on 22 final approach needs to be painted over.

 

[TheBaron]

That's not a good comparison. It is the FAA's policy to have two controllers. Not having one there is most likely a contributing factor. Catching and preventing the error is pretty much the same thing in this case. You are admitting that had there been two controllers, 49 people may not be dead. This among other factors are hard evidence this should not have happened. Yes, it happened because of the flight crew, but there are other major contributing factors.

Sure airline pilots take off from uncontrolled fields. However, usually they are single runway, or at least no general aviation runways at airline airports. These are more contributing factors that if different, could have prevented an accident. Pilots make errors. There are ways to make flying safer that are sometimes ignored. I'm very sorry 49 people are dead.

Fly safe.

Maybe this will work better.

Mr. Smith is driving down a major street and has a continuous right-of-way (no stop lights or signs.) As he approaches an intersection he glances down at the dash to see how much fuel he has. As he crosses through the intersection, He is T-boned by Mr. Jones (a drunk driver who has just run through a stop sign.) Had Mr.Smith not glanced down, he might have seen the car driven By Mr. Jones and avoided the accident. Mr. Jones however, by running the stop sign, was the cause of the accident. Cause and prevention are two different things.
Certainly there were contributing factors to this accident, but who taxied the plane onto the wrong runway? Was it the confusing airport signage? Was it the missing second controller? Maybe it was that big skeleton in the closet of the airport authority that the stewardess (Indy319FA) keeps talking about. Maybe it was someone on the grassy knoll. No. It was the flight crew.
IMHO people don't want to accept that something as simple as checking the heading bug would have prevented this. It has to be more complex than that, especially since it ended so tragically. Well it isn't. One very simple before takeoff item that most people do unconsciously was missed by both crewmembers.

 

[SKYMASTER]

More police mens prevent crime and your second paragraph is a baseless generalization as well.

No, it's not baseless. I'm driving a point of short runways, airport layout, and signage at airline airports. You are right that it is a generalization because I'm not going to write a 50 page report on this thread.

Fly safe.

 

[SKYMASTER]

Maybe this will work better.

Mr. Smith is driving down a major street and has a continuous right-of-way (no stop lights or signs.) As he approaches an intersection he glances down at the dash to see how much fuel he has. As he crosses through the intersection, He is T-boned by Mr. Jones (a drunk driver who has just run through a stop sign.) Had Mr.Smith not glanced down, he might have seen the car driven By Mr. Jones and avoided the accident. Mr. Jones however, by running the stop sign, was the cause of the accident. Cause and prevention are two different things.
Certainly there were contributing factors to this accident, but who taxied the plane onto the wrong runway? Was it the confusing airport signage? Was it the missing second controller? Maybe it was that big skeleton in the closet of the airport authority that the stewardess (Indy319FA) keeps talking about. Maybe it was someone on the grassy knoll. No. It was the flight crew.
IMHO people don't want to accept that something as simple as checking the heading bug would have prevented this. It has to be more complex than that, especially since it ended so tragically. Well it isn't. One very simple before takeoff item that most people do unconsciously was missed by both crewmembers.

Still not a good example. Forty-nine people may have lived had things outside of the flight crew been different. Air rules can not even begin to be compared to road rules. There have been other incidents, even recently, where flight crews took off from the wrong runway and just happened to get lucky. Try again. I just know how terrible some airline pilots are. Outside factors can influence factors of survival. You would be a fool to believe otherwise.

Fly safe.

 

[FN FAL]

No, it's not baseless. I'm driving a point of short runways, airport layout, and signage at airline airports. You are right that it is a generalization because I'm not going to write a 50 page report on this thread.

Fly safe.

Why would it take 50 pages...I can think of several airports with two runways that are served by 121 traffic where the 121 airplane doesn't dare take off from the shortest of the two runways. Should we hire a local to man unicom to ensure the 121 pilots don't base jump off the short one?

 

[Guitar rocker]

Why would it take 50 pages...I can think of several airports with two runways that are served by 121 traffic where the 121 airplane doesn't dare take off from the shortest of the two runways. Should we hire a local to man unicom to ensure the 121 pilots don't base jump off the short one?

Wow, I didnt know that a "121 airplane" wouldnt dare takeoff from some runway. The day that happens when an "airplane" can make a decision for the pilots will be somethin else!

The unicom point is laughable.

 

[FN FAL]

The unicom point is laughable.

No it isn't, Comair should sue Unicom. Someone on Unicom could had intervened.

As far as 121 airplanes making decisions? Who cares, jump in your pickup truck and lay rubber for all I care.

 

[Guitar rocker]

No it isn't, Comair should sue Unicom. Someone on Unicom could had intervened.

As far as 121 airplanes making decisions? Who cares, jump in your pickup truck and lay rubber for all I care.

And maybe they should sue multicom while they are at it. I think that yore 121 airplane making decision for pilot thing is clever. You should run with that......you might make a few bucks. Great concept if yah ask me....your a pretty smart dude.

 

[FN FAL]

And maybe they should sue multicom while they are at it. I think that yore 121 airplane making decision for pilot thing is clever.

I think that the county airport dudes should take their monster cab pick up trucks and lay rubber and do doughnuts, then head for city hall and pee on a statue. That'll be the ultimate act of defiance, for sure.

 

[TheBaron]

Still not a good example. Forty-nine people may have lived had things outside of the flight crew been different. Air rules can not even begin to be compared to road rules. There have been other incidents, even recently, where flight crews took off from the wrong runway and just happened to get lucky. Try again. I just know how terrible some airline pilots are. Outside factors can influence factors of survival. You would be a fool to believe otherwise.

Fly safe.

And 49 people would have lived had the crew done the job they were paid to do.
I'm not arguing that there weren't outside factors that could have changed the outcome of this accident. What would you suggest? Should we assign a "follow-me" vehicle to each airplane to ensure they get to the proper runway. Maybe we should run our numbers past the tower before each takeoff and see if they agree with our performance calculations. A chase car could run along beside us as we speed down the runway to remind us to rotate. Thanks but no thanks. I don't need my hand held.
I'm a pilot. I have made mistakes. I take responsibility for those mistakes.
You were apparently raised a little differently than I was.

 

[TheBaron]

Wow, I didnt know that a "121 airplane" wouldnt dare takeoff from some runway. The day that happens when an "airplane" can make a decision for the pilots will be somethin else!

The unicom point is laughable.

Doesn't the fly-by-wire on the Airbus basically make some pilot decisions? It won't (normally) allow the pilot to get the plane outside a programmed flight envelope.

 

[Guitar rocker]

Doesn't the fly-by-wire on the Airbus basically make some pilot decisions? It won't (normally) allow the pilot to get the plane outside a programmed flight envelope.

Ofcourse I am being sarcastic with FNFAL's wording, but the bus wont let you not takeoff on 33R in BOS if you were lined up and throw the power to it. Much as it wouldnt make a decision for you to not fly a 0/0 approach.