Comair stopped Hiring?Asking for Leaves

[P38JLightning]

agree and disagree

heavy,

the intelligence of your comment regarding the lack of sucess of the Comair strike is as ignorant as your inability to craft a meaningful analogy.

If 500 Comair pilots were furloughed there is no way in Hades we would want new hire Chautauqua jobs, especially when the only reason we would be theoretically furloughed in the first place would be because of Chautauqua's willingness to fly the same size equipment as us on the same routes for considerably less.

Sure, let's furlough a junior RJ captain here at Comair and then negotiate a deal where he can slide on over to Chautauqua as a new hire FO as a show of solidarity! Right.

That being said, I for one don't have a problem with general Lee's opinions and I agree with him the majority of the time. So he's crass at times. So what. He's still dead on ballz accurate about most things. I for one support the return of the furloughed Delta pilots to the cockpit as quickly as possible. Although I think coming to the bottom of Comair's list as a temp job was a cop out by the Delta MEC for lack of a any real solution (only 10 or 15 would have even done it in the first place) I still supported the Delta MEC's requested resolution (at a minimum) as a show of solidarity with our Delta family brethern.

Lawson may have screwed the junior half of the Comair pilots who wanted at least the option of maybe going to Delta someday, and for that I'm sure he and his envious cronies who always hated to see a young "punk" unfairly "jump ahead" of them on their way to Delta are happy. But look on the bright side, he never intended on being a new hire Delta FO anyway, and at least this way he still has his inherited millions. The blackball of the rank and file Comair pilots from ever going to Delta is just a well thought out bonus.

 

[General Lee]

P38Jlightning,

While I appreciate your accurate description of my analysis, I do think Heavy has some good points. Whether or not most furloughed Delta pilots would want to fly an RJ has a junior FO during furlough is not the point. I maintain that just the offer was needed---and I beleive that most of the furloughs would have taken the job, especially if there had been no "CRM" problems mentioned by Lawson. This has been a terrible time for a lot of pilots out there, and Lawson made it worse for some of them. I believe that Comair could have easily inked a deal for preferential hiring at Delta, and I flew with the former Comair system chief pilot when he was a new hire at Delta Express in late 1999, and he said that Delta had offered that, but the senior guys (cronies) at Comair refused. The senior guys over there really don't want to be FO's on the MD-88----and that really is why they are destructive to your whole list. I have no problem with the rank and file Comair pilots---just the ones at the top that have no vision for the senority list as a whole. Our whole list at Delta wanted you to succeed in your strike, and that is the truth.

Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[sleepy]

Fins,

Why don't you think the Delta MEC will follow a preferential hiring of ASA pilots? Do you know why he will? Because guys like me and people in the 1060 will tell him to stick to it. I cannot be sure that all the hiring will be ASA exclusive, but there will be a good ratio. I keep saying that I was one of 6 civilians in my class of thirty, and I am sure the ratio will be better for ASA pilots. We won't forget when this is over---and you can bank on it. I personally helped people get interviews, and now they are furloughed. I haven't forgotten about them, and I won't forget about the assistance from ASA. Even if I am the only one over there giving my opinion, I will be loud for sure.

Bye Bye---General Lee

We will appreciate any help we can get when the time comes General. The problem will come from ASA management, which will not be happy if they are suddenly losing a lot of pilots to DAL. This came up two years ago when DAL was hiring quite a few pilots from our training department. Our DO called Plato and asked him to stop taking all of our pilots.

 

[AFELLOWAVIATOR]

OK,

I have been reading all this and getting a good laugh. General lee with his usual lies about our MEC, Comair pilots are going on the street soon in droves.
ALL this because of a manning formula screw up!


We did cancel three classes. And the COLA is for 30 pilots for one month. Hardly a mass furlough. There was a mistake made in the manning formula, and the numbers were wrong. As a result, we need to stop classes TEMPORARILY until the deliveries catch up.


So much for your delight of Comair furloughs General. Oh, I forgot, some one said you were "dead on" most of the time. Well, not this time.

 

[sidseal]

AFELLOWAVIATOR:

'preciate you clearing that up. It's nice to know someone actually provided an answer to the original question.

 

[P38JLightning]

general say what?

when exactly did general lee predict (or wish for) mass furloughs at Comair? I don't recall him saying that.

 

[surplus1]

Skiddriver,

Nice post.

We're both owned by Delta Inc., but Comair isn't owned by the Delta mainline pilot group. We aren't your pawn to be ordered about at will.

That is precisely what the General and his like can't seem to comprehend.

I too wish that there were no furloughed pilots anywhere. I would like to see them recalled post haste. I also believe that a simple and straight forward approach might well have secured the assistance of the Comair MEC, despite the many disadvantages. However, in this particular case and circumstance, I believe that our MEC made the right decision and support it fully.

I would hope that when the time comes that Comair pilots are among the furloughed, as may well be the case one day (it happens to all of us sooner or later), the Comair MEC doesn't ask for assistance by demanding anything, by making "offers" that it cannot honor or by threatening to "go public" before the fact if it doesn't get what it wants. I would not want to see our MEC use our furloughed pilots as political fodder in an effort to obscure its own failure to act prudently.

Unfortunately for them, the furloughed Delta pilots have been used to further the political agenda of their own MEC. Eventually they will come to recognize that reality. When they do, I hope they will have the courage to acknowledge it.

For example, why was it necessary for the Delta MEC to pass a highly publicized resolution directing their Chairman to approach the Comair MEC? Why couldn't he just pick up the phone and say (as you suggested), "Hey Lawson, we need your help with our furloughed guys. Would you consider asking your Company to waive that seniority thing? My guys really need jobs and with a bit of luck we could use this together to reduce our differences and break the ice. I can't promise anything, but we're in this together and its time we talked. What do you think?" ... or something to that effect?

The whole Delta approach was an orchestrated ploy and, therefore, it failed. Our MEC saw it for what it was and appropriately rejected it. They also left the door wide open.

You may not know personally, but I can assure you this isn't the first time that the Delta MEC has threatened the Comair MEC when it wanted something. Threaten first, then ask aftewards has been their modus operandi for a long time. That style usually has the same result as pis*ing into the wind.

 

[surplus1]

Re: Cut General Lee some slack...

That is his point - he is upset at the hypocritical nature of the situation - one side helps the other and does not get reciprocity... That's the point - very simple.

While General Lee's support of his furloughed brothers is admirable, his method is much like his MEC's, i.e., counterproductive.

The point that you seem to miss, accidentaly or deliberately, is that the Delta MECs record of activities with regard to the Comair pilot group represents a history of long standing negatives and a predicted and announced (by them) future that is injurious to us. A decade of maltreatment coupled with continued planning against our interests does not vanish merely because Delta pilots have been furloughed.

We regret their furloughs, but we are not the cause. They do not regret what they have already done and have announced their intention to do as much more of as they can; none of it favorable to us. Hardly an environment in which to demand favors. You might do well to consider that the opportunity to be used when convenient and despised when not, a condition to which we have grown accustomed from the Delta MEC, is seldom conducive to the granting of favors.

Had they asked instead of demanding and threatening, who knows what the answer might have been.

As for all the help he alleges that they gave, suffice to say he's entitled to his opinion. To the individuals that did, thank you, we are grateful.

 

[surplus1]

Ok guys, some one with first hand knowledge of the ASA MEC needs to weigh in here.

Fins,

Just so you'll know that I was not trying to mislead anyone, the statement I made regarding the ASA MEC's actions and the existence of an "agreement" between the ASA/DAL MEC's came to me directly from elected members of the ASA MEC. I believe them. I know them personally, have trusted them in the past, and have no reason not to believe them now. I will protect the confidentiality and will not name anyone. However, if at some time in the future I had to prove it, the answer I was given is in my possession, in writing. I just wanted you to know that I don't post things like that on hearsay.

I also know that the ASA MEC took advantage of the Company's decision to hire furloughed Delta pilots, got on the "bandwagon" and decided to support it rather than oppose it. I think that was a wise political decision and have said so previously. One thing that I believe the Comair MEC hasn't done is attempt to second-guess your MEC. We accept your right to make your own decisions in the way that you deem appropriate for you. I hope that never changes.

If Comair management had taken a decision to hire furloughed pilots, I think the Comair MEC would have done exactly what your MEC did. I don't know that, but I believe it would be that way. Please note: --- I am not a member of the CMR MEC. I also do not hold any elected or appointed position with the MEC and I do not speak for the CMR MEC. My opinions are my own.

If our MEC dares to make the Delta MEC angry, our money dries up. [ …] pragmatically we must obey the commands of the Delta MEC. We are in contract negotiations

I told my story of the money leverage exerted against us in the previous post. That also was not an invention or rhetorical. It was factual and yes, if I had to, I could prove that too. It's all documented.

Pragmatism is an interesting word. I don't want to disagree with you and therefore I don't want to say this but feel that I must. In general terms, it is my experience that the Comair MEC doesn't dwell much on whom, outside of Comair pilots, may be annoyed by its decisions. As far as I know and certainly hope, it also does not feel that it must "obey the commands of the Delta MEC." As long as we have an MEC of our own, I pray that will never happen.

The Comair MEC was also in the middle of negotiations when direct action was initiated by the then sitting EVP from Delta, with full support from the then EVP of group C (now different) who was ostensibly the EVP for Comair (we were in group C at the time). The Delta EVP was angry because we were not interested in a floow-through and said so. Comair apparently had a different view of pragmatism. The MEC felt, at that time, that the most pragmatic approach for us was to choose to assess ourselves, pay our own bills and avoid being coerced by the Delta MEC or anyone else. That is what we did and I personally am quite happy that our MEC made that choice.

Granted there is a price to be paid for independence. We as a group were ready to pay that price. I believe that we still are. The assessment was voluntary, the money was removed from ALPA's control and, it was used to pay for our negotiations and flight pay loss. There was no problem collecting it from Comair pilots and we continued to pay it until after our contract was signed. If it were my decision, I would do it again in a heartbeat.

As for the MEC's decision to reject the most recent political maneuver of the Delta MEC and the so-called preferential hiring, for what it's worth, I support the CMR MEC 100%. While I was not at the table myself, I have no doubt whatever that our MEC Chairman did not make this decision without the full support of his MEC and I believe his account of the events. I know him personally and I trust him. We are small and our leaders are not strangers to us.

Some of our pilots may have made a different choice. While I am not certain of this, I believe that those who do not fully appreciate our MEC's decision are simply too new at Comair to be fully aware of the circumstances leading to the current state of affairs. When they become fully knowledgeable, I have little doubt that the overwhelming majority of that smaller group will support it as well. The solidarity of our group as a whole did not come about from operating in the dark. Our MEC has always kept us fully informed. We don't always get advance notice, but we are told why decisions were made in a particular way. Its function is to act in the best long-term interest of all Comair pilots. That is exactly what our MEC did in this instance.

I sincerely hope that in the future the conflicts of interest that exist between the Comair group and the Delta group will minimize and we can find a way to pursue effectively the many common interests that we have. However, until the Delta MEC decides to redirect its efforts against us, which have been increasing ever since Comair ordered its very first jet, and stops trying to take from us, that is not likely to happen. Therefore, it is essential that Comair pilots stand together as one and protect each other. No one can or will take better care of us than we can of ourselves. It is true that we don't have much, but it is also true that we will have nothing, unless we defend it. They've made their intent totally clear, which leaves us few choices. We'll do our best to protect what we have.

Good luck in your negotiations. When you need our support, I'm confident it will be there.

 

[General Lee]

Surplus1,

You do a lot of backtracking, don't you? Heavyset hit it right on the nail----I am upset about giving you and your group money and support, and in return our 1060 pilots are used as pawns in some game with your MEC and mine. I don't know what was exactly said between the MEC's, and you have not posted any notes taken between them at that famous meeting. Fins agreed that the ASA MEC allowed our guys in (even with $$ pressure from mama Delta), so you were wrong on that count. How should we get them back in the cockpit? Should our MEC just give you guys unlimited 70 seaters, and then your MEC will allow our pilots to sit in the right seats of your 50 seaters? Should we just give up all Scope? Look what is happening with Chit-talk in your own backyard. How many senior Comair Capts will have to move from Florida when Chit-talk totally takes over down there eventually? Are those Capts mad at all? We have to have some scope to keep what we have. We have 8400 pilots---do you want us to have less? We have 1060 pilots on the street-----that is like 60% of your Total pilots---on the street? When would you allow them to come back? How about you call each one personally and tell them to press the Dalpa MEC to drop scope so they could come back to the right seat of YOUR RJ's and fly crappy trips at the bottom of your list. Yeah, right. What would you do if you had to furlough and Chit-talk started hiring 60 a month to put in their NEW EMB-135's and put them on your routes? We need to have scope, and unfortunately you can't see that. The end result is that we helped you and supported you, and you cannot do the same with our guys who are in need right now. That is too bad.


Sleepy,

I will be there to help the ASA pilots, and Plato or whoever is running it then will hear our opinions. The ASA management side of the equation is your job, but I am sure they wouldn't mind getting cheaper (new hires) pilots to fly their equipment either.

Bye Bye---General Lee