COMAIR in Atlanta....

[bvt1151]

Gen Lee,

well your first innaccuracy is that it was never said. Aside from that you've got your facts all wrong. Hiring furloughs at Comair without requiring them to retire their number IS bad for the Comair pilots. Its sudo-seniority. You are hiring people who are GUARANTEED to leave, leaving the rest of the pilot group flying the crappiest trips, and flinding themselves back on reserve after 5-10 years. When Delta calls back furloughs, there could be a severe gap in Comair's seniority list, which not only hurts the company, but also the pilots who are at Comair because they want to work there, not the ones flying for a part-time job.

"Hey guys, come on over. We feel for you and we thank you for supporting us when we were striking..."

This was said. However it has been said to every pilot in the industry. Other pilots have swallowed their pride and resigned their seniority number to work at Comair, but your colleagues can't seem to. One major misconception you have about Comair pilots, and your MEC shares in this misconception, is that we look up to Delta pilots. You are paid more, and thats where the admiration stops. Comair is different from other regionals you've dealt with in that there is a great loyalty within its pilot group to make Comair a great airline, not Delta. If you come to us with a take-it-or-leave-it offer, don't be suprised when we leave it. In light of that, our union management has no interest in a subjective preferential hiring offer that hurts the company and every other Comair pilot, but only helps the pilots who want to leave.
One major thing you forgot to mention is that Lawson sent a letter to the DALPA MEC back in December inviting him back to the table after Buergey refused to negotiate. Lawson IS trying to get your furloughs working again; Much harder, in fact, than your own MEC. "So instead of negotiating with Comair, we'll just try and ruin their reputation by saying they won't hire furloughs." There ARE those of us who know better.

For those who take the time to research the true situation, I'm confident in what you'll find. For those interested in General Lee's "facts"...
Kool-Aid

 

[CarjCapt]

Btv1151

Here Here....absolutly correct

 

[General Lee]

BVT1151,

First of all you need to re-read my post---the part where I said "the MADE UP Quote." I never said that that quote was real, that is just the FAKE quote we would LOVE to hear from Lawson. It never will happen it appears. So, hiring furloughs would be bad for your "career" pilots at Comair? How? Do you think all of our furloughs would came back at once? All 400 for example? Wrong. And, guess what? Delta pays your bills. Yes, you are NOT an independant company anymore. Delta has said (Fred Reid said this in the crew room briefing) that they support the hiring, except there is a "CRM" problem with Comair. (Fred Butrell echoed that also) But, ASA's MEC chair obviously has no problem with the hiring of our furloughs, and it has happened---without having to give up the senority number. You have NO excuse for that---ASA is your Sister company--and they are doing it. You are BOTH owned by Delta---and Delta has left it up to YOU to decide---and ASA (The same type of company as YOU, again I say) has decided to be nice---you have not. You have NO EXCUSE---especially that one about "Well, every airline pilot from the other airlines has to resign their number..." Guess what? Delta OWNS you. They are not objecting to ASA not doing that, but you still do. You admire our salaries only, huh? You don't like the bigger planes, better schedules, better destinations, or anything else, huh? Well, ok then. If you do not want the chance to go to Delta when times are better and fly bigger planes for better money to better places, well that is your choice. You got it. Tell me again how Lawson has tried to "get our furloughs working again?" How? Your Union management has "no interest in subjective preferential hiring." That really is cocky. The ASA union management has had NO problems at all, and we have decided to give them some preferential hiring eventually when our furloughs come back. Also, when our MEC chair met with yours and asked for help, your MEC chair said sure, except with strings attached. Is that not true? It is true. Lawson asked for unlimited 70 seaters and other restrictions to be cut. That made our furloughs "hostages." You weren't going to help them UNLESS you got something else. Admit it, it is true. Sure, you can say Lawson was looking out for you---but slamming our furloughs at the same time. That is low. We didn't hold anything over your heads during your strike---and you won't even admit that we helped you unconditionally. You can never admit that. It all comes down to this----we helped you in your time of need, and you cannot do that for us now without strings attached. We shall remember this----and it is great that you don't want to fly at Delta. Enjoy South Bend, your ASA buddies will be flying 757's someday to Bermuda for Delta----caution wake turbulence.

Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[CarjCapt]

Don't you get it General, Fred Reid says (remember he's offering Koolaid) it's CRM problem at Comair and there is no problem at ASA. They can't have it both ways. ASA and CMR are basically the same with two different managements being controlled by Mother Delta.

Mother Delta says to whipsaw everyone against each other, it will be done.

If the furloughed Delta pilots were championed by their representatives agressively there would be furloughed Delta pilots at CMR and much larger numbers at ASA.

I believe I would direct any questions about why there are 1300+ Delta pilots on the street to your MEC, because your MEC has the power not the wholly owned or the wholly owned MECs.

 

[embdrvr]

If you do not want the chance to go to Delta when times are better and fly bigger planes for better money to better places, well that is your choice. You got it.

Rectal-Lee flip flops again folks!!! In his previous post he said he had nothing against the line pilots of CMR but in this post he restates CMR pilots won't ever be welcome at Big Daddy Delta.
GL, are you man enuf to admit to the fact that you have a big time grudge against all CMR pilots? Your rhetoric is getting tiring. The good news is you'd probably win a$$hole of the Forum award if one was ever offered.

I'm sure your health insurance covers psych counseling. Why don't you print out a few of these threads you've hijacked to share with the nice doctor while you lie on the couch and tell him about your childhood.

 

[General Lee]

CarjCapt,

Fred Reid gives koolaid and your MEC Chair does not? He is the only one telling the truth, not Fred Reid. Fred Reid can make the changes himself, and why would he whipsaw us against only Comair and not ASA? That point doesn't make sense. If he wanted to whipsaw us, it would be us against BOTH you and ASA--not just one. I have talked to many of our Dalpa Reps and asked them about this Comair deal, and all of them have said their hands are tied----it is up to your MEC Chair---and they are not willing to give up Scope provisions---soemthing YOUR MEC CHAIR wants. It is blackmail, and our furloughs are paying for it.

EMBDRVR,

Hah hah---I love that Rectal Lee---you really are a professional, resorting to name calling. You can't come up with a good retort without name calling. Rectal and general are kinda close--not. Childish--for sure. Anyway---I have not flip flopped---if you re-read my post I was talking to that particular guy---not the whole Comair group. Re-read it----and you will see. I said, "If YOU do not want to....." That is singular---and you are WRONG again. I need psych counseling? Yeah, ok---I'll do that just for you. I'll give the guy these posts and he will undoubtably say, "You are totally justified in your actions....I applaud you. You stand up for your fellow pilots, and that guy Embdrvr needs some help. What is up with his "rectal" fascination??? " You always resort to name calling, and never ever bring up the facts that we helped you in your time of need, and now Comair cannot do the same for our pilots. That will never be admitted by you or anyone else over there. There is a major CRM problem over there I guess. Oh wait, that is Fred Reid's koolaid message. And I don't remember anyone saying I did not have the right to respond on any thread, let alone hijack one. You guys are the only ones allowed on the regional threads, huh? Wrong again. I am on here to voice my opinion about what affects my friends on furlough. The double standard that took place after we helped you is my central theme. Those of you who don't like it probably agree with me and are ashamed. We helped you and you left our furloughs in the dark---and that is the truth. You want something in return for your help---which is hurting our unemployed. Not good.

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[CarjCapt]

You can believe that all you want, but that isn't the truth.

You have all the control and I can absolutely guarantee that our MEC has none. We can't get jobs for your furloughed pilots if our management doesn't want to change their long standing policy.

Besides a empty promise of preferred hiring from your MEC chairman doesn't do anything to effect the cost of our MEC negotiating in your behalf.

Your MEC Chairman needs to do the right thing and represent his pilots both online and furloughed, my MEC can't do it for him and properly represent us at the same time.

It would be much better if we worked together, but my hope of that disappeared when Mr. Burgey told us what to do, and when we said "lets talk" he turned and left the room, leaving your furloughed pilots without any possibility of work within the Delta family until recalled.

 

[embdrvr]

Hey General Lee!

Do you prefer to be called "Genital Ree?"

You're full of BS and it's time to own up to it.
Do you recognize this quote from one of your own posts??

If you are a Comair pilot, the only thing you will ever see on a Delta jet is one of the back seats, well ok, maybe a jumpseat.


Bye Bye--General Lee


So are you against the whole CMR pilot group or just holding a grudge against Lawson. Well which is it,.... punk?

I'm done with this "discussion." This is too much like wrestling a pig.

 

[General Lee]

CarjCapt,

You said, "Our management doesn't want to change their long standing policy..." Hey, Fred Reid is in charge of your management. He is the boss of Fred Butrell. Fred Butrell told us that your Management didn't think it was safe for "CRM" reasons, but ASA's did. That is such a joke. That is a slap in the face, and don't expect our furloughed pilots or guys like me to understand the logic in that, except that it is a slap in the face. Fred Reid thought it would be OK, and approved that ASA allowed it, but your management is being advised by Lawson, and that is where the animosity comes from. I am so glad I supported you during your unsuccessful strike. I am so glad I signed those checks. I am sure that most of our 10,000 pilots (at the time pre-9-11) are happy now they supported YOU. We shall remember.

Embdrvr,

You get funnier and funnier. I admit it that I have said things in the past due to emotions that might have included the whole group. But, I have read posts lately that have changed my mind--and I do not now blame the average Comair line pilot--and I have been solid on that for the last couple weeks. I try to give my own opinions and try to make some people see my point of view, which seems to go on deaf ears as of late. I have always fought for the furloughs at this company, and I am trying to find a way to help them, in some ways by trying to show others my views on what has happened. This is a forum, which allows open posts. Then guys like you try to come in and call people names and shadow the truth. You are the one losing it. What was this about me failing checkrides? Well, knock on wood, I haven't yet. I've been lucky I guess. What was this about me harassing UNDERPAID regional pilots because some checkairman gave me a rough time? You need to be checked for drug use. You are dilusional man, dilusional and grasping for anything. You know I am right, and you need to come up with something. You know that we helped you and you won't help us without strings attached, and it is driving you nuts.

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[General Lee]

This thread is now way off base. I will retreat and avoid this one, but I will still speak my mind and give my opinions--especially about the Delta furloughs.

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[CarjCapt]

<but your management is being advised by Lawson, and that is where the animosity comes from.>

General, the above statement is the laugh of the decade.

Our MEC only agrees with our management on this issue. They don't advise and if they didn't agree do you think management would listen? Especially since our management is doing Delta's management's bidding.

Again, Sir, you are barking up the wrong tree you and your MEC need to talk to Delta management as long as you want to remain alone and apart. When you want to show a unified front to Delta/ASA/CMR management come see us and we'll welcome you warmly. The door is open.

 

[Heavy Set]

It is about reciprocity...

Embdrvr and CarjCapt,

You are both wrong. General Lee is correct. Lawson and his cronies screwed it up for the "typical" Comair pilot by doing the opposite of ASA in terms of hiring furloughed pilots (not displacing current pilots - just adding to the list). Why would it do that? How idiotic!

Aren't Comair pilots aware that Delta mainline guys are involved in the mainline hiring process and are ABSOLUTELY ENRAGED by Comair's ludicrous decision not to help furloughed pilots? How do I know this? I just called two of my Delta buddies and relayed them your positions - they were aghast. This is not a superficial issue. All of the Delta guys I talk to are upset. They supported Comair in their strike and now there is no reciprocity or extension of help.... I don't care if it is a long-standing policy for Comair - ASA did - Comair should too. There is no displacement of pilots... Get it? It shouldn't be a problem. Delta OWNS Comair. Delta OWNS ASA. Comair's pilots should WANT to support Delta's furloughees and either replace the MEC or petition the management to get some change in policy - if they want to improve their chances of getting hired by the mainline - it is that simple.... If you don't want to support Delta furloughees, get your apps out to Southwest and wait in line forever... ASA guys are in a great position now.

Ebrdrvr,

Are you in the 3rd grade? I like your lame name calling... You reduce the effectiveness of your arguments when you do that. Stick to logic and you will be fine. All General Lee is talking about is the need for reciprocity given the mainline's support of Comair during their strike - the furloughees should be accorded some assistance - that is all. Sure, General Lee can be really sarcastic and a bit emotional at times - but he does make sense.


My 2 cents.

 

[CarjCapt]

You just don't get it.

You said it Delta ownes ASA/CMR. We aren't in control YOU are.

That's all folks.

 

[higherflyer]

BVT1151,

And, guess what? Delta pays your bills.

Bye Bye---General Lee

You might want to double check things there-- at the moment, I think that ASA and Comair are paying a lot of the bills at big DL. And before you launch another of your attacks, I don't work for either!

 

[bladeusa]

I read that ASA and COMAIR are paying DELTA bills. Where is the proof and how much? What is the precentage of Delta flying and revenue?

Lets see some facts so we can get a better idea of your point.


DAL holds the books and the numbers.. and both of which could be manipulated to show anything u wanted.... gain or loss.. however... when every dollar counts, as it does right now.. who is growing...buying airplanes and hiring?... and who is shrinking?

 

[General Lee]

Bladeusa,

I think if Delta is bleeding so much they should stop all of their future expenditures for this year right now and conserve cash. They are buliding new terminals in BOS and JFK---and that should stop. Oh yeah, they are also buying $1billion worth of RJ's this year. We all want mother Delta to survive, right? Let's stop the buying and start conserving $$$$---oh, but that might stop YOUR growth. All of the RJ's you have gotten over the last 2 years were appropriated from money that Delta made in the late '90's. The money we lost last quarter was mainly due to the War and high gas prices coupled with our stopping many European flights. I guess your RJ's could have flown those European flights from JFK, huh? Give me a break. The flights are now oversold to Europe---I just checked to go to Frankfurt from ATL next week, and they are all oversold--on 777's, and that goes the same for CVG and JFK. Our Revenue is coming back, with or without your RJ's.

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[bladeusa]

i hope it comes back for everybody...none of this with or without drivel... im happy to have growth on all sides of the industry. Do u? Seems like its always us vs them with u.. U seem bitter that we are expanding ... like u want us to shrink and suffer.. i don't wish that on u.. Im looking forward to having everyone recalled and hiring to resume.

 

[AFELLOWAVIATOR]

Private Lee, wrong as always. Comair and ASA support their own growth. We were buying airplanes before we were bought, and we continue to do so. We are just buying and leasing them from Delta now.
Good greif, I swear I don't know why you feel you have to make up this stuff.

 

[FlyDeltasJets]

Private Lee, wrong as always. Comair and ASA support their own growth. We were buying airplanes before we were bought, and we continue to do so. We are just buying and leasing them from Delta now.
Good greif, I swear I don't know why you feel you have to make up this stuff.

That's very interesting. ASA and cmr are now buying planes from Delta? I wonder how that would be depicted on a financial statement. Could you possibly explain further?

Did we make a profit by selling the airplanes to a company that we own?

 

[surplus1]

To Captainv Part 1 of 3

Originally posted by captainv

Actually, beyond the issue of furloughees, Gen. Lee and I rarely agree.

Thanks for your reply; nice post. First, I'll apologize for yanking your chain a bit hard. It's just that it gets very frustrating when a Comair pilot appears to trust the words of a pilot from another airline more than he does the words of his own people. I'm happy to hear that you don't agree with everything he says, because most of what he says is nothing more than political rhetoric and hyperbole. You asked a lot of questions so this is going to be long. It is unfortunately too complex for a couple of paragraphs. Bear with me if you can.

I appreciate your concern for your furloughed friend. That is a good thing, but it is also a personal thing. I also appreciate the General's concern for his fellow furloughed pilots. That is a good thing and his zeal is admirable. We should all be concerned for every furloughed pilot, not just the pilots from a particular airline and our airline is hiring furloughed pilots from many airlines, in significant numbers.

The fact is that the Comair MEC is NOT preventing Comair from hiring Delta pilots. They are not being hired by Comair because they choose of their own free will not to comply with Comair's requirements. The Delta pilots have a right to make that choice and Comair management also has a right to establish and maintain its own hiring requirements. Those requirements were not put in place to prevent the hiring of furloughed Delta pilots. They have been in place much before the current rounds of furloughs. What exactly makes a Delta pilot so different from a United pilot, a USAirways pilot, a Midway pilot, an Eagle pilot, a NWA pilot, an American/TWA pilot or any other airline pilot that's furloughed? Why should Comair have a different policy for furloughed Delta pilots than it does for furloughed pilots from those other airlines?

At this point I'll venture a guess that you're thinking --- well, Delta owns Comair. Yes, Delta does own Comair but the Delta pilots do not. The Delta pilots also do not own or control Comair pilots or the Comair MEC, they just think they do. Maybe they would like to, but at some point in life even a Delta pilot has to understand that you can't have every thing you would like.

This is as old as the hills, so I'm sure you've heard it before. There's a long line of pilots at the pearly gates waiting for St. Pete to check their ID and grant admission. Suddenly a guy in a Delta uniform walks up, bypasses the line, ignores St. Pete and walks right in. A UAL pilot in the line turns to the guy behind him, a NWA pilot, and says, "Look at that dam*ed Delta pilot, who's he think he is anyway, God?" "Shhhh," says the NWA pilot, "that IS God, he just thinks he's a Delta pilot."

Delta management can tell Comair management what to do and when to do it at any time. If the Delta MEC really wants to help furloughed Delta pilots, a political campaign against the Comair MEC (and that is exactly what this is) isn't going to do it. Why is the Delta MEC asking the Comair MEC to secure the hiring of furloughed Delta pilots? Why doesn't the Delta MEC ask Delta management to direct Comair management to do so?

It's pretty simple, the Delta MEC saw an opportunity to attempt to discredit the Comair MEC and cause Comair pilots to fight among ourselves. They know that Comair has a large number of new pilots (25% of the total) that were not even at Comair during the strike. Most of those new pilots have dreams of one day flying for Delta. That provides a perfect opportunity for the Delta MEC to try to turn those pilots against their own MEC and divide Comair pilots against each other. Why does the Delta MEC want to do that? Because the Delta MEC is actively engaged in attempting to take aircraft assigned to Comair for itself (the 70-seaters) and has been trying to do so since 1994, with the help of the ALPA. The Delta MEC and ALPA together have a goal of doing that and further, of restricting Delta's use of the 50-seat CRJ. Both of those acts injure all Comair pilots and some of them are fighting it in the courts. That annoys the Delta MEC and prevents/delays it from directly screwing Comair pilots even more than it already has. This preferential hiring BS is nothing more than a political maneuver that is designed to do two things, 1) help to cover the Delta MEC's ineffective efforts to help the furloughed pilots, and 2) facilitate the Delta MEC's ability to take from Comair pilots while diluting our will to resist. They would like to do to Comair (and to ASA) exactly what the APA is trying to do to American Eagle or what ALPA and the AAA MEC have done to six different regional airlines, and this whole preferential hiring scheme is nothing more that a part of the political effort to accomplish that. If they can succeed in dividing Comair pilots, it will make it easier for them. It really has nothing to do with their furloughed pilots. This is politics plain and simple and you ought to recognize that.

The Delta pilots, not all but most, don't think Comair pilots should be on their seniority list and have said so repeatedly. They even hired "outside counsel" to prevent any possibility of that happening. Why is it wrong, for us to feel the same way? The General feels that the Comair MEC is doing an injustice to furloughed Delta pilots because it has not made a statement urging Comair to waive its hiring policy with respect to his furloughed friends. That's his opinion and he has a right to it, but that doesn't make it so. Because he doesn't like the CMR MEC's decision to decline trying to make a special exemption for Delta pilots, he and many of his associates, have repeatedly threatened to black-ball every Comair pilot from any possibility of ever being hired at Delta in the future. When his MEC made the proposal, it couched it together with the threats that it would "go public" and do exactly what the General is trying to do if the Comair MEC did not roll over and do their bidding. They kept their "promise".

Apparently the objective of the threats is to intimidate Comair pilots. Since that hasn't worked, he is now saying that he doesn't hate Comair pilots (anymore), he just hates the MEC Chairman and "his cronies." Can't intimidate the pilot group at large, attempt to intimidate the MEC and turn Comair pilots against their own. They have further recommended that Comair pilots should recall their MEC, because it has chosen not to discriminate in favor of furloughed Delta pilots, as opposed to furloughed pilots from other airlines. Well, we all have a right to our opinions and my opinion is that the Comair MEC was chosen by Comair pilots to represent the interests of Comair pilots, and to protect the job security of Comair pilots, not the interests of Delta pilots and that is exactly what it is doing.

The General and his associates then remind us all, again repeatedly, that the Delta pilots "helped us during our strike" and therefore (I guess) we "owe" them. Well guess what, the ASA pilots and the UAL pilots helped us too and so did the USAirways pilots, the UPS pilots, the Eagle pilots, the ACA pilots and every other pilot group that's out there. Those that have furloughed pilots as well as those that do not. Even the American pilots helped us and they belong to a different union. In just about every post on the subject, the Delta pilots remind us of the fact that they paid strike benefits. Well, bully for them. That happens to be a requirement of membership in the ALPA and it is mandatory, not optional. Every ALPA pilot paid strike benefits and none of them paid any less or any more than the Delta pilots. All ALPA pilots paid the very same assessment. Why then do Comair pilots "owe" the Delta pilots more than we owe anyone else?

The Delta pilots further remind us that they contributed to our family fund and again, we "owe" them for doing that. Yes, some of them did give to our family fund; most of them did not. Well guess what, a lot of other airline pilots also gave to our family fund and yes, we are all grateful for that. However, we do not "owe" the Delta pilots any more than we owe anybody else. If you or anyone else really wants to know exactly how much the Delta pilots "gave" to our family fund, why don't you ask our MEC? Maybe they'll tell you. Maybe they will also tell you that the check we got from the American pilots alone, was the biggest and was nearly as much as the donations we received from ALL ALPA carriers combined. Maybe they will tell you how much the United pilots gave and compare it to what the Delta pilots gave. Then you'll have an idea of just who the BS spin-doctors really are and who we really "owe".


Continued in Part 2