College Flight Aviation or not?

[pilotyip]

What about the other 113 companies?

Air Inc, I know your favorite organization, lists 118 companies currently recruiting, on that list are maybe five companies that make the degree a showstopper. What about the other 113 companiesthat do not care about a degree?

 

[Clyde]

Air Inc, I know your favorite organization, lists 118 companies currently recruiting, on that list are maybe five companies that make the degree a showstopper. What about the other 113 companiesthat do not care about a degree?

Those other 113 are probably not worth a $&*!@ to work for anyway. Low pay, high work hours, little or no benefits, and if you're lucky, you might get to wear a pager 24 hours a day. The companies that don't care about a degree typically are the ones that nobody wants go to work for in the first place. In other words, they don't have a choice and cannot be picky when it comes to hiring.

The companies that someone should be aiming for are the majors, and only a few are hiring at the moment. Now, one or two may advertise that a degree isn't necessary in their hiring minimums, but that doesen't gurantee an interview or a subsequent job offer. There are few very good jobs up for grabs out there, and more than enough people applying for them.

BTW, Air Inc and Kit Darby should be taken as seriously as Mad Magazine and Alfred E. Newman.

 

[wmudriver]

This following example in the model of success in pursing flying job. We just hired a 20 year old pilot, 1 year of on-line college credit completed, started working the ramp pumping gas in high school, got hired hauling cargo in SA-227 as an F/O, at 18, got promoted to 208 Capt at age 20, he has 1600 TT, 1100 MEL, 350 Turbine PIC, 1450 total turbine, he is starting as a DA-20 F/O at 33K, he will be a DA-20 Capt the day he turns 23, he feels he will have his degree completed by the time he is 25 or 26 years old. At that time he should have 5200 TT, 4700 MEL, 5050 Turbine, 3200 hours 121 time, 1200 121 Turbo Jet PIC. He will have his on-line BS degree in Aviation Management, and no debt. He will be interviewing with the 4 or 5 year traditional college graduate for his first airline job, The traditional 4 yr degree guy who has TT 1200 350 MEL 15 Turbine. Who is the more competitive?

Who cares....Whatever happenend to going to college, making buddies, drinking beer and getting laid?

 

[pilotyip]

Hey Clyde

Here is the picture; patterns tend to repeat themselves. Any year ending in an 8 is a great year to get a job. In 1968, 1978, 1988, and 1998, there was lots of movements, guys leave jobs at AirTran and SWA for the "Dream Jobs" at UAL, DAL and USAirways. Years ending in 3 are terrible years for hiring 1973, 1983, 1993, 2003. Therefore, the next hiring boom will be in full swing by 2008. Therefore never take a new job in a year ending in 9. Six months before 2008 is 2007 June and that is how you pick that date. Majors may not be hiring alot, but there will be plenty of jobs. Would you care to make a public wager that is hiring in 2008 is at least 200% better than it is this year.

 

[pilotyip]

Hey Clyde again

"Those other 113 are probably not worth a $&*!@ to work for anyway. Low pay, high work hours, little or no benefits, and if you're lucky, you might get to wear a pager 24 hours a day. The companies that don't care about a degree typically are the ones that nobody wants go to work for in the first place. In other words, they don't have a choice and cannot be picky when it comes to hiring" It happens to include Jetblue, Spirit, all of the "Regionals" and Net jets. No pagers there, good equip, scheduled flying.
Your brush of the 113 other companies is a little to broad for your conclusion

 

[pilotyip]

Now WMUdriver

Bobby would not like you to say going to college is fun, because if you went to Harvard or Yale you have to work real hard.

 

[bobbysamd]

College

Bobby would not like you to say going to college is fun, because if you went to Harvard or Yale you have to work real hard.

. . . . or Michigan State, Yip, or Colorado State University, N.Y.U., Chadron State, or East Armpit Normal. Reread my comments above. I did acknowledge how there are some kids who take off four years, hang at the frats, and live for Greek Weekend - and I did say those individuals are in the minority and that most college students really try to learn and get an education.

 

[bobbysamd]

113 companies

Those other 113 are probably not worth a $&*!@ to work for anyway. Low pay, high work hours, little or no benefits, and if you're lucky, you might get to wear a pager 24 hours a day. The companies that don't care about a degree typically are the ones that nobody wants go to work for in the first place. In other words, they don't have a choice and cannot be picky when it comes to hiring.

Moreover, by not having competitive credentials, i.e., the degree, you are limiting yourself to these 113 companies. When you think about it, 113 companies aren't very many. Good companies or not, considering the tremendous competition for jobs, why give yourself only 113 choices?

Once more, the benefit of being educated aside, it's all about having choices, and as many choices as possible. Earn the degree and you can apply to these 113 companies, and every other company.

BTW, Air Inc and Kit Darby should be taken as seriously as Mad Magazine and Alfred E. Newman.

How dare you slam Mad Magazine! Kit Darby couldn't carry Al Feldstein's typewriter. Mad was one of my favorite reads through junior high. Especially Don Martin and Spy v. Spy. Al Jaffee. The satires were matchless. Mad is a classic; even my wife used to stock it in her law school library. But your point about Kit, Air, Inc., and, of course, FAPA, is very well taken.

 

[Clyde]

Here is the picture; patterns tend to repeat themselves. Any year ending in an 8 is a great year to get a job. In 1968, 1978, 1988, and 1998, there was lots of movements, guys leave jobs at AirTran and SWA for the "Dream Jobs" at UAL, DAL and USAirways. Years ending in 3 are terrible years for hiring 1973, 1983, 1993, 2003. Therefore, the next hiring boom will be in full swing by 2008. Therefore never take a new job in a year ending in 9. Six months before 2008 is 2007 June and that is how you pick that date. Majors may not be hiring alot, but there will be plenty of jobs. Would you care to make a public wager that is hiring in 2008 is at least 200% better than it is this year.

Show me the money. This is the worst shape the industry has been in since its conception. Your computation of when the industry will beging hiring is no different than looking at the newspaper horoscopes for it.

The industry is going through a huge transformation right now. In years past, the regionals acted like feeders to the mainline carriers. The airplanes were smaller, routes more restrictive, and the companies very small.

Fast forward to today, and the smaller commuters are now large regionals. Instead of feeding traffic to the mainlines, they are being assigned a lot of routes that were once flown by mainline aircraft.

The economy today is a lot different than it was in the past. Sure we are in an economic recovery, but it is not like recoveries of past. In the past, the airlines sweated out a recession, and then they went back to business as usual when it was over. i.e., business practices such as outrageous pricing.

Can't do that anymore. Business practices have changed and the airlines of the present are having a hard time adapting.

We lost Eastern, Pan Am, and Braniff a while ago. Now, it looks like we may lose United and US Airways. When the previous three were lost, other majors picked up the slack. Now, it is being picked up by smaller carriers who are operating with much lower labor costs. i.e., pilots are paid very little.

So, there may be a hiring boom. But, do you consider making a career at a company where one will make a third of what a major pilot would have made 10 years earlier a success? How about retirements at these companies? Will it be there also?

I'll take your wager. Heck, double it and I'll still take you on. And, because I'm a nice guy, I won't collect from you when 2008 comes and goes without any hiring boom. Oh, by the way, one more thing. The majors have set a record for the most people furloughed. In the past, people were furloughed and brought back, and usually under the same or better pay and working conditions. Don't think we are going to see that.

 

[pilotyip]

Wrong again Clyde

I think the 79-83 downturn was worse than this one because I lost my job then. I had buddies in my reserve unit who were going through thier second layoff after being hired in 1973 just prior Oct war turndown. There are at least twice as many flying jobs avaialble today than there was in 1984. Anyone one have a comment?

 

[pilot_guy]

college can't buy you a seat...

College won't get you a job any moreso that PFT...let's get real. It's all about who ya know. If you network, kiss a$$, etc, you stand a better chance than the guy sending out resumes and building time in the meantime whether or not he has a degree.

It's a roll of the dice, always has been, only now it's more noticeable. The airlines learned that "Hey, these guys will do it for $hit. How much do you think we can get away with?" and have adjusted accordingly. The days of the big money are gone boys; the writing is on the wall. I think you'll be lucky to end up skipper on a 717 or 737 and making 80-100k. I'm not talking about you guys that are early 30s and older...you are in the system now. I'm talking about all us "young" guys (18-25) who haven't gotten there yet.

Someone posted earlier that it used to go back to business as usual after a recession. Yep, that's right. Prices were high, and mgmt. got fat, and so did the pilots. Now, with LCC and the regionals taking the lion's share of the work load, and consumers demanding cheaper flights, there's not enough dough for everyone to get fat, so mgmt. and the fat cats aren't gonna share.

So, where does this leave the new wonderkids? Well, they're all gonna get the d!ck from the boardroom. That's inevitable because there are too many whores that will fly for squat. Question is, how far will they take it before they say "ouch, stop that"?

 

[pilotyip]

$100k?

And what is wrong with $100K/yr and Captain's job on a neat airplane? Never made that in my life, would be thrilled to see it.

 

[standaman]

And what is wrong with $100K/yr and Captain's job on a neat airplane? Never made that in my life, would be thrilled to see it.

Amen brother. I see no problem with this. My dad has been working for close to 30 years now has a masters degree and everything. He has to work alot harder for 80K a year than any captain in a 717 ever has.

 

[Luchini]

College won't get you a job any moreso that PFT...let's get real. It's all about who ya know. If you network, kiss a$$, etc, you stand a better chance than the guy sending out resumes and building time in the meantime whether or not he has a degree.
QUOTE]

If this is true it would be better to get a degree in aviation since it surrounds you with aviation people to network with.

 

[Tycer]

Go to Purdue, major in something other than Aviation, but still take some aviation classes. Join the Greek system and have the time of your life! You will be able to still have a "aviation college" on your resume and you will have a ball. Go my route and become a waiter at the KKG house and then really have some fun! Good Luck!

 

[pilotyip]

Exactly!!

Tycer, now there is a good reason to go to college, and if that is what you want you should go to college. But it has nothing to do with being a pilot.

 

[Tycer]

In terms of entering a professional career path concerning aviation, a college education is nothing if you have one, but everything if you don't.

 

[BoilerUP]

Go to Purdue, major in something other than Aviation, but still take some aviation classes. Join the Greek system and have the time of your life! You will be able to still have a "aviation college" on your resume and you will have a ball. Go my route and become a waiter at the KKG house and then really have some fun! Good Luck!

I was going to suggest something almost identical to this route (being partial to LAF and all)

I'm gonna be a senior in Aviation Flight Technology this year, and Purdue has been very good to me. I have flown new airplanes, gotten excellent flight and ground training, have professors that know me by name and care about what I do, instructed part-time last year and this year, flown a King Air 200 and they are sending me to ICT this Sunday for Beechjet SIC training. I've gotten a contract coporate gig because of contacts within the university, and (almost) free flying time with the Flying Team. I have worked my butt off, but its all been worth it!

If I had it to do all over again though, I would probably have double-majored. An AvTech degree unfortunately doesn't have many transferrable skills, at least in the eyes of employers, so I would have diversified myself. Purdue has a TON of different options that are relatively compatiable with AvTech's schedule. I have friends double-majoring in everything from PolySci to Management to Meteorology to Mechanical Engineering. They will all graduate with both degrees after only 4.5 or 5 years.

My ideal path (if I could do it again) would be to major in Flight, but double-minor in both Management and Meteorology. This way, I would be highly marketable not only as a pilot, but within aviation managment and operations as well as MANY other fields because of the overall business background. Sure it'd be alot of work, but AvTech ain't exactly Aero Engineering.

Work your tail off in college so you don't have to work so hard once you get out. Give yourself maximum opportunities when you graduate. Get to know anybody and everybody that could give you a leg up on getting a job. But most importantly, enjoy college. You will have the rest of your life to work, but probably never have as much fun as you have in those 4-5 years. Be prudent but smart, and you'll enjoy the best of both worlds.

Best of luck in whatever you choose.

 

[Clyde]

I think the 79-83 downturn was worse than this one because I lost my job then. I had buddies in my reserve unit who were going through thier second layoff after being hired in 1973 just prior Oct war turndown. There are at least twice as many flying jobs avaialble today than there was in 1984. Anyone one have a comment?

Are you including every flying job out there or just the airlines? There may be twice as many jobs available today, but they are nowhere near the quality of the jobs available then.

 

[pilotyip]

True statment Clyde!

No doubt about it, the quality of the flying job has gone down since 1982, why back then Pam Am, Eastern, TWA were dream jobs. Those jobs could not be sustained under the market forces of de-reg. And as it is being seen organized labor can not successfully confront those market forces. There are lots more jobs out there now, looking at my FAPA hiring report from 1983 estimated 2300 jobs to be opening up in 1984. What is Air Inc predicting for 2004, 7000-9000 jobs? If you like flying airplanes this is a great career and $100K to do something you like is every working man's dream. If you are in it for money, respect, prestige, and external rewards, you will probably be disappointed.

 

[bobbysamd]

Kit's Kool-Aid aside

What is Air Inc predicting for 2004, 7000-9000 jobs?

The Pied Piper of the Pilot Shortage is at it again. Every year since I've either been involved with or been around or have followed professional aviation, which is going on seventeen years, Kit has given the same stupid prediction of seven-thousand to nine-thousand jobs. I am sure the furloughees who would love to find work would love one of those "jobs."

I could understand it during the '87-'90 and '95-'00 booms, but in all the other years? Is he counting the same seven hundred jobs ten times over? What a bunch of hooey.

Speaking of jobs, I have heard that Frontier is hiring both pilots and F/As and America West is hiring pilots.

 

[pilotyip]

from the stats

I don't have his latest hiring newsletter in front of me, but if I remember from the last one I saw sitting in the pilot’s lounge. About 5000 pilots were hired last year. This is all levels from SWA to Joe and Pete's haul a box somewhere outfit. As of the end of June, like 4,500 have been hired this year, that is the basis of his 7000-9000 prediction. What is not shown is the multiplying effect of hiring. I.e. if SWA hires a guy and he leaves a job at ComAir. Two new hires are credited, one at SWA and one at ComAir, now the guy who was hired at ComAir left a job at Airnet. This creates three jobs, one at SWA, one ComAir and one at Airnet, now a guy etc, etc, etc. jobs are created. Kit just tells it like it is, he provides a service at price the same as SWA when it sells at seat from DTW to TPA. He is doing what American’s do best, developing a business and creating jobs for his staff. If you do not like Kit, do not buy his product, but the purchase of his product is an individual choice.

 

[bobbysamd]

Kit's Kool-Aid, kontinued

I don't have his latest hiring newsletter in front of me, but if I remember from the last one I saw sitting in the pilot’s lounge. About 5000 pilots were hired last year. This is all levels from SWA to Joe and Pete's haul a box somewhere outfit. As of the end of June, like 4,500 have been hired this year, that is the basis of his 7000-9000 prediction. What is not shown is the multiplying effect of hiring. I.e. if SWA hires a guy and he leaves a job at ComAir. Two new hires are credited, one at SWA and one at ComAir, now the guy who was hired at ComAir left a job at Airnet. This creates three jobs, one at SWA, one ComAir and one at Airnet, now a guy etc, etc, etc. jobs are created. Kit just tells it like it is . . . .

No, he does not. He tells it like it is not. It's comforting (?) to know that some things in aviation never change, not the least of which are Kit's bogus hiring representations.

[H]e provides a service at price the same as SWA when it sells at seat from DTW to TPA. He is doing what American’s do best, developing a business and creating jobs for his
staff . . . .

. . . . predicated on sophistries. At least SWA provides an honest service. Developing a business and creating jobs is one thing, but, I, for one, cannot abide his ethics, or lack thereof, in building false hopes and peddling bogus information. No, I do not like Kit.

 

[Clyde]

$100K is a lot of money, but what do you have to sacrifice to do it? Case in point: my last job was one that you could find in an Air Inc letter posted under openings. It was one of those jobs Kit was including when he prophesised 6 Billion job openings this year.

As a Captain, if I would have stayed a couple of more years, my salary would have been around 90K, giver or take a couple of grand. Not bad money. But let's read the fine print. On the pager 24 hours a day. Only have 6 guaranteed days off a month. If I'm on the road when the days off start, I commercial home on that day and I'm not credited another or paid extra. Benefits were next to nothing. Insurance was almost worth not having. Equipment was junk. Always looking over your shoulder for the feds, because the company would try to pressure you to "bend" the regs. In danger of getting fired at will for not being a company man. And a company man does not equate to a legal man.

On top of all of this it was non-union. A union wouldn't guarantee better wages, but it sure would have given us a higher quality of life. i.e., compensation in either day off or extra pay for commercialing home on a day off.

So sure, the money may be good. But at what cost is it worth it to take some of these jobs just for the money? I don't think it's fair for Kit Darby to send some kid a brochure with pictures of large airliners and airline captains dressed up in a nice, pressed uniform with the phrase "hiring boom around the corner" printed underneath it while at the same time proclaiming 7000 jobs available.

Kit Darby is a salesman. He has a product and he is trying to sell it. I don't think his word is worth the paper it's printed on. Ask a furloughed 5+ yr pilot from a major airline what he thinks of Kit's "optimism".