College Flight Aviation or not?

[pilotyip]

What do you want to be?

Again I have nothing against a college degree, the country will be a better place for people going to name colleges. Getting degrees in the sciences, business and engineering and applying what has been learned will be better for all of us. The college degree has nothing to do with flying an airplane. If soemone feels them will have a edge in an avaitioon career by going to college, they should go to college. But that is not the path for everyone.

 

[Gearmunky]

Luchini,

Dude, I couldn't agree with bobbysamd more. You and I were in the same boat, the only other thing I was interested in was history. I got to college and couldn't stand sitting in the classes, not to mention I was going to a college that I hated. I thought I couldn't fly for medical reasons of which turned out not to be true. I quit and enrolled in an aviation program at another private college and the rest is history. I had no direction because I'm the first in my family to fly and knew nothing about the business. The point of the matter is major in whatever you want it doesn't affect the outcome from a pilot's stand point. If you want to be a chief pilot later in life maybe it might help, but even then your experience as a pilot makes more of a difference not your degree. I've seen many jobs posted and none were ever, EVER degree specific. And get a degree, that is your first priority if you want an airline job the time takes precedence, but think about it, if another 9/11 or some other rediculous bullsh*t happens it's going to leave you up a creek without a paddle. Your going to be furloghed and working at a job you absolutely cannot stand until your number gets called to go back, if ever. Nothing against airline pilots at all, if you get in at the right time and ride it out you'll be making good money and have a schedule other professions in your salary bracket would kill for. Most corporate jobs ask for a degree.

Start flying now while you decide, it can't hurt.If you can pay your way that's fine if you can't loans are the only other option, if you don't have the money and you try to pay by the lesson your wasting both time and money. I know people who got the time before the degree and are miserable trying to catch up. Get your commercial, intstrument ASAP and in the summers off from college drag rags up the beach and build your time and go back to school during the winter and work on your multi and CFI. Most of those jobs pay for your housing and the flying is seat of your pants (a little dangerous, but hell when is flying not?)

No one can draw out your life's plans but you. If you talk to every pilot they all got their time in different ways, but it's better to have degree and not be able to apply because of time than have the time and not be able to get a job because of a degree. Time is easier to get than a degree, and a lot more fun There's a lot of ways to do it. I don't have much time, but I don't instruct yet either. I have other ways of building time. Whatever you decide as a major do what you like, if you like history major in that, become a teacher as a back-up profession. And if your flying career goes well and you don't need to teach, you'll still make one helluva good Jeopardy player. Good Luck.

 

[Luchini]

Yea definetly gonna get my degree. I always pondered the idea of teaching, especially teaching in history but I dunno about having to wake up 6 AM Mon-Fri. It would be a good backup plan though. I could always get flight time after school and on the weekends while teaching.

 

[Paul McCartney]

A degree is all you really need, what it's in doesn't matter. Having a degree in a field with no related experience isn't going to get you a job "to fall back on" any more than a regular BS in Aviation will get you a job in a office. Hiring managers generally don't care what your major is, unless it is a very specific job like Engineering or Architechture. The important thing is that you'll have one. Also, I know of several people who have gone on to Grad school with a degree in "Airplanes" and majored in things other than aviation. One is even a lawyer now, one an MBA. (Myself included)

As for licenses and ratings, I would combine college and flying both for ease of credits and financial aid. I learned to fly at an FBO, and it was great for me. I got the college degree in Airplanes the old fashinoned way. It was cheaper, and I used leftover financial aid to pay for flight time. Just a thought.

Finally, I would stay away from YIP's advice to do the online degree to jump start your flying career. He has a point that seniority and flight time are valueable, but so is having a life. I actually graduated from college early to get a head start and it paid off to an extent professionally, but I regret some of the "college experience" I missed. After all you are only young once, and you will have plenty of time to work after school. Online classes are harder IMHO. I did my MBA online, and it was quite challenging. Not so much the coursework, but time management. I did my BS in 3 years and it took me 3 1/2 to do the MBA that should have taken half that. Plus I know several people who thought they would go back to finish their BS that never did and it has constantly been a thorn in their side.

Best of luck to you in the future.

 

[Clyde]

Luchini,

Yip's posts make it sound tempting to put off school and start flying right away. And yes, this story does happen to a few people, and I emphasize the word FEW.

Now, there are a few variables here that are not mentioned. First, even though this kid is gaining valuable experience early, who in the forseeable future is going to begin hiring anytime soon? If the goal is American, Delta, or Northwest for example, it may be several years before they even begin to hire off the street. And, chances are they are not going to be like the airlines we grew up with. Pay and schedules are going to be a lot different to ensure those companies remain competitive and profitable.

Second, I flew for a company at YIP that was a competitor to USA Jet. It's not easy work. This kid is going to fly his butt off. He is going to be on a pager, not know when his next trip his, or how long he will be in a given hotel. Not saying anything bad about USA Jet or any of it's competition, but it's not easy work and it's not for everyone. If he likes it great, but what if he doesen't and is stuck there for a while?

Third, stability. Again, I am in no way speculating on or otherwise speaking about USA Jet's financial health. That is my disclaimer. I am however, cautioning about the fact that companies which haul freight on demand can be here one day and close up shop the next. It's happened, it happens today, and it will continue to happen. A lot of guys out there have the resumes to prove it.

Here's my point: Get college done first and learn something (non-aviation, in my opinion) such as a skill that will make you marketable and put food on your table. Then, learn to fly. Do it during the summers when you're off, or wait until college is done.

Contrary to what Kit Darby is telling everyone, there isn't going to be any hiring for a long time, so there is no need to be in a panic about getting on somewhere quick. Remember, you are 21 years old, and youth is on your side. Although I have nothing negative to say about the regional's, I don't consider them career goals. If it takes the majors 10 years from now to begin hiring (and that is a definite possibility) you will only be 31. If you finish college two years from now at 23, gather all your ratings at 24, and begin flying and building time, that would give you 7 years to get qualified, assuming hiring begins by that time. I think you would be able to gather a lot of good experience in that time.

If you remember only one thing, remember this: A degree on your wall and a very good skill in your back pocket are things you will always have with you. The only guarantee in aviation is change, and sometimes that change will NOT always be in your favor.

My $0.02

 

[FlyFastLiveSlow]

Luchini,

Yip's posts make it sound tempting to put off school and start flying right away. And yes, this story does happen to a few people, and I emphasize the word FEW.

Now, there are a few variables here that are not mentioned. First, even though this kid is gaining valuable experience early, who in the forseeable future is going to begin hiring anytime soon? If the goal is American, Delta, or Northwest for example, it may be several years before they even begin to hire off the street. And, chances are they are not going to be like the airlines we grew up with. Pay and schedules are going to be a lot different to ensure those companies remain competitive and profitable.

Second, I flew for a company at YIP that was a competitor to USA Jet. It's not easy work. This kid is going to fly his butt off. He is going to be on a pager, not know when his next trip his, or how long he will be in a given hotel. Not saying anything bad about USA Jet or any of it's competition, but it's not easy work and it's not for everyone. If he likes it great, but what if he doesen't and is stuck there for a while?

Third, stability. Again, I am in no way speculating on or otherwise speaking about USA Jet's financial health. That is my disclaimer. I am however, cautioning about the fact that companies which haul freight on demand can be here one day and close up shop the next. It's happened, it happens today, and it will continue to happen. A lot of guys out there have the resumes to prove it.

Here's my point: Get college done first and learn something (non-aviation, in my opinion) such as a skill that will make you marketable and put food on your table. Then, learn to fly. Do it during the summers when you're off, or wait until college is done.

Contrary to what Kit Darby is telling everyone, there isn't going to be any hiring for a long time, so there is no need to be in a panic about getting on somewhere quick. Remember, you are 21 years old, and youth is on your side. Although I have nothing negative to say about the regional's, I don't consider them career goals. If it takes the majors 10 years from now to begin hiring (and that is a definite possibility) you will only be 31. If you finish college two years from now at 23, gather all your ratings at 24, and begin flying and building time, that would give you 7 years to get qualified, assuming hiring begins by that time. I think you would be able to gather a lot of good experience in that time.

If you remember only one thing, remember this: A degree on your wall and a very good skill in your back pocket are things you will always have with you. The only guarantee in aviation is change, and sometimes that change will NOT always be in your favor.

My $0.02

Clyde, good, well thought advice. My highlight in red up there. Would you expect anything else from Kit Darby? All he wants to do is sell $400.00 memberships. He's a creep.

 

[Clyde]

Clyde, good, well thought advice. My highlight in red up there. Would you expect anything else from Kit Darby? All he wants to do is sell $400.00 memberships. He's a creep.

FlyFast,

Excellent post and I agree with you 100%.

 

[pilotyip]

Different Opinion

My sample kid is going have head of the line privileges when hiring boom starts in June of 2007. He will 5000TT, 4500 MEL, 1500 TJ PIC and a college degree from his on-line university. I have seen too many non-degreed guys succeed. During the last hiring boom, we had pilots without degrees hired by the majors based upon the quality of their flight time. It works, I have seen it. I believe you are giving bad advice to those who want to pursue an alternate path to a career cockpit position.

 

[Clyde]

My sample kid is going have head of the line privileges when hiring boom starts in June of 2007. He will 5000TT, 4500 MEL, 1500 TJ PIC and a college degree from his on-line university. I have seen too many non-degreed guys succeed. During the last hiring boom, we had pilots without degrees hired by the majors based upon the quality of their flight time. It works, I have seen it. I believe you are giving bad advice to those who want to pursue an alternate path to a career cockpit position.

What boom and where did 2007 come from? If every furloughed pilot were recalled today and requalified, the airlines still wouldn't have them all done by 2007. Maybe 2008, but that's really pushing it. Then, and only then, could they begin interviewing off the streets. Also, you're assuming the airlines are profitable by then. True, some are starting to show a small profit, but they are going to have to be consistenly profitable for a number of quarters (if not years) before they are healthy enough to hire. And, BTW, the reason some are turning profits is due to more work with less people for decreased wages and benefits. i.e., productivity. I doubt they are in a hurry to fil the classrooms.

The only way "wonder-kid" is going to have any head of the line privileges anywhere is by knowing someone. I've seen a lot of people with 10,000 hours, and clean records never get anywhere with a major. Time is one thing, but it's who you know that gets you the interview.

Not doubting many people without degrees got hired by majors during the last boom, but how many of them are still employed at their respective majors? And, if they are fuloughed, what are they doing now? I'll bet many out there with an education in addition to flying are doing something in another industry.

I was hired towards the end of the last boom, and I am thankfully still very much employed. In my new-hire class, there were 18 of us, including me. Out of 18, ONE person did not have a degree. So, out of 18 people chosen to be hired for this class, 0.05% did not have a degree. That looks like very good odds.

When the majors do begin hiring again, that "hiring boom" is probably not going to be nearly as big as the last one. In other words, they are going to hire less people. There are a lot of people out there who will be competing for those jobs. The degree may become even more important to have than it traditionally has been in the past.

Bottom line is this: if you want to fly for a major airline, get yourself as qualified as you can. Degree (or degrees), flight time (quantity and quality), and make contacts. A lot of people are going to be applying for these jobs. Do something to make yourself stand out in a positive way that will be different from the thousands of other applicants.

Again, my $0.02.

 

[bobbysamd]

Go to the back of the line

My sample kid is going have head of the line privileges when hiring boom starts in June of 2007. He will 5000TT, 4500 MEL, 1500 TJ PIC and a college degree from his on-line university. I have seen too many non-degreed guys succeed. During the last hiring boom, we had pilots without degrees hired by the majors based upon the quality of their flight time. It works, I have seen it. I believe you are giving bad advice to those who want to pursue an alternate path to a career cockpit position.

Actually, military pilots will have head-of-the-line privileges. They always do. They will have, typically, 3000+ total, with nearly all of that multi-turbine, and a significant amount of that "TJ PIC." Their training will be a known quantity, their equipment will be known, their flight experience will be known quantities, and, being officers, generally, they will be known quantities. No doubt about it, your sample kid will have received great experience flying for your company and could still be a desirable applicant, but when compared to his military competition, he won't be able to carry their hard hats.

No, Yip, you are giving, at the least, deceptive advice, if not bad advice. As was said above, how do you know for sure that a hiring boom will start in June, 2007? Based on history repeating itself, it is possible, but not for sure. And, once more, unlike your company, most other companies in the league in which you play either want the degree or some college. These companies can get plenty of applicants who have either, and applicants without will get short shrift.

One other point. Mom and Dad will just love it when Junior comes to them and proclaims, "I want to be a pilot. I'm not going to college after high school." "But, son/young lady, don't you need a college education?" "No, Pilotyip on flightinfo.com hires pilots, and he says I don't have to go to college now and I should start flying and go to work."

Finally, after Junior is hired but is furloughed, he/she might have all this great flight time and turbine time, and a high school diploma, probably because he/she was having such a great time flying that he/she didn't register for online college. He/she needs a job to wait out the furlough. What job will he/she get? Maybe flight instructing, if he/she got his/her CFI. More likely, Safeway, Home Depot, Wal-Mart, or Bed, Bath & Beyond. Bearing in mind that many of these places employ people for only 30-35 hours a week to get out of paying benefits.

If getting flight time early is such a major priority, a good, organized student can go to summer school and maybe take AP classes. He/she can graduate in January instead of June, maybe receive college credit for the AP classes, start college immediately, go to summer school, and maybe graduate at age 20.

 

[pilotyip]

What about the other 113 companies?

Air Inc, I know your favorite organization, lists 118 companies currently recruiting, on that list are maybe five companies that make the degree a showstopper. What about the other 113 companiesthat do not care about a degree?

 

[Clyde]

Air Inc, I know your favorite organization, lists 118 companies currently recruiting, on that list are maybe five companies that make the degree a showstopper. What about the other 113 companiesthat do not care about a degree?

Those other 113 are probably not worth a $&*!@ to work for anyway. Low pay, high work hours, little or no benefits, and if you're lucky, you might get to wear a pager 24 hours a day. The companies that don't care about a degree typically are the ones that nobody wants go to work for in the first place. In other words, they don't have a choice and cannot be picky when it comes to hiring.

The companies that someone should be aiming for are the majors, and only a few are hiring at the moment. Now, one or two may advertise that a degree isn't necessary in their hiring minimums, but that doesen't gurantee an interview or a subsequent job offer. There are few very good jobs up for grabs out there, and more than enough people applying for them.

BTW, Air Inc and Kit Darby should be taken as seriously as Mad Magazine and Alfred E. Newman.

 

[wmudriver]

This following example in the model of success in pursing flying job. We just hired a 20 year old pilot, 1 year of on-line college credit completed, started working the ramp pumping gas in high school, got hired hauling cargo in SA-227 as an F/O, at 18, got promoted to 208 Capt at age 20, he has 1600 TT, 1100 MEL, 350 Turbine PIC, 1450 total turbine, he is starting as a DA-20 F/O at 33K, he will be a DA-20 Capt the day he turns 23, he feels he will have his degree completed by the time he is 25 or 26 years old. At that time he should have 5200 TT, 4700 MEL, 5050 Turbine, 3200 hours 121 time, 1200 121 Turbo Jet PIC. He will have his on-line BS degree in Aviation Management, and no debt. He will be interviewing with the 4 or 5 year traditional college graduate for his first airline job, The traditional 4 yr degree guy who has TT 1200 350 MEL 15 Turbine. Who is the more competitive?

Who cares....Whatever happenend to going to college, making buddies, drinking beer and getting laid?

 

[pilotyip]

Hey Clyde

Here is the picture; patterns tend to repeat themselves. Any year ending in an 8 is a great year to get a job. In 1968, 1978, 1988, and 1998, there was lots of movements, guys leave jobs at AirTran and SWA for the "Dream Jobs" at UAL, DAL and USAirways. Years ending in 3 are terrible years for hiring 1973, 1983, 1993, 2003. Therefore, the next hiring boom will be in full swing by 2008. Therefore never take a new job in a year ending in 9. Six months before 2008 is 2007 June and that is how you pick that date. Majors may not be hiring alot, but there will be plenty of jobs. Would you care to make a public wager that is hiring in 2008 is at least 200% better than it is this year.

 

[pilotyip]

Hey Clyde again

"Those other 113 are probably not worth a $&*!@ to work for anyway. Low pay, high work hours, little or no benefits, and if you're lucky, you might get to wear a pager 24 hours a day. The companies that don't care about a degree typically are the ones that nobody wants go to work for in the first place. In other words, they don't have a choice and cannot be picky when it comes to hiring" It happens to include Jetblue, Spirit, all of the "Regionals" and Net jets. No pagers there, good equip, scheduled flying.
Your brush of the 113 other companies is a little to broad for your conclusion

 

[pilotyip]

Now WMUdriver

Bobby would not like you to say going to college is fun, because if you went to Harvard or Yale you have to work real hard.

 

[bobbysamd]

College

Bobby would not like you to say going to college is fun, because if you went to Harvard or Yale you have to work real hard.

. . . . or Michigan State, Yip, or Colorado State University, N.Y.U., Chadron State, or East Armpit Normal. Reread my comments above. I did acknowledge how there are some kids who take off four years, hang at the frats, and live for Greek Weekend - and I did say those individuals are in the minority and that most college students really try to learn and get an education.

 

[bobbysamd]

113 companies

Those other 113 are probably not worth a $&*!@ to work for anyway. Low pay, high work hours, little or no benefits, and if you're lucky, you might get to wear a pager 24 hours a day. The companies that don't care about a degree typically are the ones that nobody wants go to work for in the first place. In other words, they don't have a choice and cannot be picky when it comes to hiring.

Moreover, by not having competitive credentials, i.e., the degree, you are limiting yourself to these 113 companies. When you think about it, 113 companies aren't very many. Good companies or not, considering the tremendous competition for jobs, why give yourself only 113 choices?

Once more, the benefit of being educated aside, it's all about having choices, and as many choices as possible. Earn the degree and you can apply to these 113 companies, and every other company.

BTW, Air Inc and Kit Darby should be taken as seriously as Mad Magazine and Alfred E. Newman.

How dare you slam Mad Magazine! Kit Darby couldn't carry Al Feldstein's typewriter. Mad was one of my favorite reads through junior high. Especially Don Martin and Spy v. Spy. Al Jaffee. The satires were matchless. Mad is a classic; even my wife used to stock it in her law school library. But your point about Kit, Air, Inc., and, of course, FAPA, is very well taken.

 

[Clyde]

Here is the picture; patterns tend to repeat themselves. Any year ending in an 8 is a great year to get a job. In 1968, 1978, 1988, and 1998, there was lots of movements, guys leave jobs at AirTran and SWA for the "Dream Jobs" at UAL, DAL and USAirways. Years ending in 3 are terrible years for hiring 1973, 1983, 1993, 2003. Therefore, the next hiring boom will be in full swing by 2008. Therefore never take a new job in a year ending in 9. Six months before 2008 is 2007 June and that is how you pick that date. Majors may not be hiring alot, but there will be plenty of jobs. Would you care to make a public wager that is hiring in 2008 is at least 200% better than it is this year.

Show me the money. This is the worst shape the industry has been in since its conception. Your computation of when the industry will beging hiring is no different than looking at the newspaper horoscopes for it.

The industry is going through a huge transformation right now. In years past, the regionals acted like feeders to the mainline carriers. The airplanes were smaller, routes more restrictive, and the companies very small.

Fast forward to today, and the smaller commuters are now large regionals. Instead of feeding traffic to the mainlines, they are being assigned a lot of routes that were once flown by mainline aircraft.

The economy today is a lot different than it was in the past. Sure we are in an economic recovery, but it is not like recoveries of past. In the past, the airlines sweated out a recession, and then they went back to business as usual when it was over. i.e., business practices such as outrageous pricing.

Can't do that anymore. Business practices have changed and the airlines of the present are having a hard time adapting.

We lost Eastern, Pan Am, and Braniff a while ago. Now, it looks like we may lose United and US Airways. When the previous three were lost, other majors picked up the slack. Now, it is being picked up by smaller carriers who are operating with much lower labor costs. i.e., pilots are paid very little.

So, there may be a hiring boom. But, do you consider making a career at a company where one will make a third of what a major pilot would have made 10 years earlier a success? How about retirements at these companies? Will it be there also?

I'll take your wager. Heck, double it and I'll still take you on. And, because I'm a nice guy, I won't collect from you when 2008 comes and goes without any hiring boom. Oh, by the way, one more thing. The majors have set a record for the most people furloughed. In the past, people were furloughed and brought back, and usually under the same or better pay and working conditions. Don't think we are going to see that.

 

[pilotyip]

Wrong again Clyde

I think the 79-83 downturn was worse than this one because I lost my job then. I had buddies in my reserve unit who were going through thier second layoff after being hired in 1973 just prior Oct war turndown. There are at least twice as many flying jobs avaialble today than there was in 1984. Anyone one have a comment?