Colgan And Skywest Pilots

[Wiskey Driver]

Think long and hard before you decide to have ALPA represent you!!! There seems to be a proven track record of ALPA favoring the larger carriers. They left TWA pilots high and dry and now they are not following their own constitution and bylaws regarding merger policy. Section 45 of ALPA merger policy clearly states that "ALL ARBITRATED DECISION ARE FINAL AND BINDING AND THAT ALPA WILL USE ALL RESOURCES TO DEFEND AWARDS". Alpa has yet to do this and has set up a committee in order to violate it's own policies in favor of the larger carrier.

Think long and hard who you want to represent you or against you...

WD.

 

[Fred Rogers]

I think the US Airways pilots would disagree with you that they favor larger carriers

The way I understand it is that the committee is there to explore alternative options, but the ruling is final. So maybe fence agreement, maybe other stuff??????

Can't say for sure, I am not involved. The important thing to see is that just because you are a larger carrier, ALPA does not necessarily favor you.

Why would ALPA be actively going after colgan? They will loose a lot of money on Colgan and they know it.
Think about it.

 

[Wiskey Driver]

I think the US Airways pilots would disagree with you that they favor larger carriers

The way I understand it is that the committee is there to explore alternative options, but the ruling is final. So maybe fence agreement, maybe other stuff??????

Can't say for sure, I am not involved. The important thing to see is that just because you are a larger carrier, ALPA does not necessarily favor you.

Why would ALPA be actively going after colgan? They will loose a lot of money on Colgan and they know it.
Think about it.

Well that would all be well and good but name one arbitration that had ALPA suggest after the fact deals, name just one!!!!

Fences shoud have been on the table PRIOR to the arbitration not after. National needs to follow their bylaws and stay out of the politics regarding this merger. Now if AWA had UNITED, DELTA, NORTHWEST or even Prater's CONTINENTAL written on the side of our aircraft do you think for one minute that we would be having this debate??? Smart money says no way.

Prater/national stepped on their cranks and now are looking for a way out. Well their search is about to end in a massive DFR lawsuit...

You can't serve two masters!!!!

 

[Fred Rogers]

Prater/national stepped on their cranks and now are looking for a way out. Well their search is about to end in a massive DFR lawsuit...

You can't serve two masters!!!!

I don't want to get into a huge debate about this because it's not my battle, but how did "Prater" step on anyone's "crank". This merger followed ALPA policy and a totally independant arbitrator, agreed upon by both sides, made the decision. The arbitrator, from what I understand, told the US MEC that they needed to work with him and do some barganing or they wern't going to like what happened. From what I understand (casual observer) they didn't budge so they got what he said.

Bottom line is that ALPA's merger policy keeps them out of it. This was done by an independant arbitrator, who was agreed upon by both sides. That's it. Still not my fight.

The arguement for me is to have COLGAN represented. Tell me what you think about the current group representing the Colgan pilots. Ooops There isn't one. Anyone in their right mind would agree that the Colgan pilots need representation NOW!!! ANY delay would be very costly to our livelyhood. If this vote were to not pass it would be another year before we could try again.

The bigger percentage of yes votes we get, the stronger our position is! We need EVERY VOTE!

Don't delay, Vote today Colgan pilots!!

It's time to put the days of Jonathan Ornstein style whipsawing behind us.

www.alpa.org/colgan

 

[70-SS]

The arguement for me is to have COLGAN represented. Tell me what you think about the current group representing the Colgan pilots. Ooops There isn't one. Anyone in their right mind would agree that the Colgan pilots need representation NOW!!!

[URL="http://www.alpa.org/colgan"]www.alpa.org/colgan[/URL]

Enough said!!

 

[70-SS]

Think long and hard who you want to represent you or against you...

WD.

Well who do you suggest should represent the Colgan pilots?

 

[TurboAWD]

WD-

Are you mgmt? Seriously, that was one of the dumbest posts this year. I don't think you really understand what is going on at AAA/AWA/ALPA National. It is a **** sandwitch, but national didn't make it happen. Two pilot groups unable/unwilling to find a reasonable solution (lots of arogance on both sides) combined with an arbitrator that made an award that is a bit tilted created the problem.

As far favoring major cariers, believe me, ALPA will spend more money at Colgan than they collect in dues from Colgan pilots...by a long shot.

Colgan pilots, I'm sorry you got purchased by Pinnacle. These guys are out to screw you. You will not be able to defend yourself, ALPA is the best option.

Vote yes and vote often.

Turbo

 

[Wiskey Driver]

WD-

Are you mgmt? Seriously, that was one of the dumbest posts this year. I don't think you really understand what is going on at AAA/AWA/ALPA National. It is a **** sandwitch, but national didn't make it happen. Two pilot groups unable/unwilling to find a reasonable solution (lots of arogance on both sides) combined with an arbitrator that made an award that is a bit tilted created the problem.

As far favoring major cariers, believe me, ALPA will spend more money at Colgan than they collect in dues from Colgan pilots...by a long shot.

Colgan pilots, I'm sorry you got purchased by Pinnacle. These guys are out to screw you. You will not be able to defend yourself, ALPA is the best option.

Vote yes and vote often.

Turbo

No turbo I am not managemet, I am a sitting AWA ALPA rep!! There are other choices as well for representation. Now I know you guys don't have the horse power to get iit done with an in house union but did you ever consider teamsters??

Go to the majors forum and read about how ALPA is totally screwing our merger up. Yes TURBO ALPA not the west group and no the award was not tilted. If you had read it you would know that.

WD.

 

[PCL_128]

Think long and hard before you decide to have ALPA represent you!!! There seems to be a proven track record of ALPA favoring the larger carriers.

Absolutely ridiculous post, especially coming from a sitting status rep.

They left TWA pilots high and dry

ALPA did no such thing. The TWA pilots can whine and file lawsuits until they're blue in the face, but ALPA did nothing to screw them over. In fact, the TWA pilots can blame their predicament on the fact that ALPA wasn't the representative at AMR. If this was an ALPA/ALPA merger, then they would have ended up much better off. As it turned out, the TWA MEC was left with two options: give up the scope protections governing mergers and save the jobs of the pilot group, or try to hold on to it and AMR will just allow TWA to go chapter 7 and cherry-pick the assets at auction with zero pilots to go with them. ALPA had no way to defend against this, so the TWA MEC did what was best for their pilots and surrendered their scope/merger protections to facilitate the merger and save jobs.

and now they are not following their own constitution and bylaws regarding merger policy. Section 45 of ALPA merger policy clearly states that "ALL ARBITRATED DECISION ARE FINAL AND BINDING AND THAT ALPA WILL USE ALL RESOURCES TO DEFEND AWARDS". Alpa has yet to do this and has set up a committee in order to violate it's own policies in favor of the larger carrier.

Again, not even close to an accurate representation of facts. The EC and the President have defended the award and stated that it is binding. However, it is blatantly obvious to everyone but the AWA pilot group that this award was not fair in the slightest, and the AAA pilots might very well decertify in protest. The Association would be irresponsible not to try to work something out that would bring a more favorable resolution to this. Why not agree to some long-term fences? You AWA guys claim that no one on the West wants any of those East bases or upgrade slots, so why resist fences to assure the East pilots that that's the case? Why will you and the rest of the AWA MEC not even humor the AAA MEC with the possibility of discussing a fence agreement to resolve these issues? You're watching your company devolve into chaos and there isn't a snowball's chance in hell that the East pilots will work towards a joint contract with the current integrated list, so don't you believe it's ultimately in your pilot group's best interest to sit down with the East and try to work out a solution? Put your ego aside and think pragmatically. That's what your job is in that position.

 

[70-SS]

No turbo I am not managemet, I am a sitting AWA ALPA rep!! There are other choices as well for representation. Now I know you guys don't have the horse power to get iit done with an in house union but did you ever consider teamsters??



WD.

So let me get this straight WD. You suggest that Colgan/Skywest vote down ALPA, go back to what we have, which is nothing, wait a year and attempt to get teamseters?

Why don't you quit your job, come over to Colgan/Skywest and get that started.


I'm goin with ALPA!

 

[Prop2Jet]

A bit late for that Whiskey....

Here let me ask you this. Have you ever been with a carrier that does not have representation? I would assume no. No foul. You just don't understand how bad it really is with out it. See it is kinda like the Presidential election. You must choose an evil, but one which is not as bad as another.... Hence ALPA.....

Got Alpa?

 

[On Your Six]

Go Teamsters!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[TurboAWD]

Go to the majors forum and read about how ALPA is totally screwing our merger up. Yes TURBO ALPA not the west group and no the award was not tilted. If you had read it you would know that.

WD.

Riiightttt... Because you were just about to get on the A330 at AWA before the merger...oh, wait...

I don't think the award is as tilted as some people, but it is NOT what I would call reasonable. Then again, neither was the AAA DOH B.S.


Turbo

 

[SkyNation]

people give ALPA too much, and too little credit.

ALPA can't prevent bad things from happening at your airline. They also don't necessarily cause them to happen.

I've been on both sides, and what we have at SkyWest is , IMHO, better.

 

[J and E's Daddy]

Think about the working conditions and how you are treated now, without representation (sp) and think about the protections you'd have with it. ALPA has helped me with a wrongful termination and a medical issue. Without representation, would you have any help from a wrongful termination or loss of medical?

 

[Wiskey Driver]

Absolutely ridiculous post, especially coming from a sitting status rep.



ALPA did no such thing. The TWA pilots can whine and file lawsuits until they're blue in the face, but ALPA did nothing to screw them over. In fact, the TWA pilots can blame their predicament on the fact that ALPA wasn't the representative at AMR. If this was an ALPA/ALPA merger, then they would have ended up much better off. As it turned out, the TWA MEC was left with two options: give up the scope protections governing mergers and save the jobs of the pilot group, or try to hold on to it and AMR will just allow TWA to go chapter 7 and cherry-pick the assets at auction with zero pilots to go with them. ALPA had no way to defend against this, so the TWA MEC did what was best for their pilots and surrendered their scope/merger protections to facilitate the merger and save jobs.



Again, not even close to an accurate representation of facts. The EC and the President have defended the award and stated that it is binding. However, it is blatantly obvious to everyone but the AWA pilot group that this award was not fair in the slightest, and the AAA pilots might very well decertify in protest. The Association would be irresponsible not to try to work something out that would bring a more favorable resolution to this. Why not agree to some long-term fences? You AWA guys claim that no one on the West wants any of those East bases or upgrade slots, so why resist fences to assure the East pilots that that's the case? Why will you and the rest of the AWA MEC not even humor the AAA MEC with the possibility of discussing a fence agreement to resolve these issues? You're watching your company devolve into chaos and there isn't a snowball's chance in hell that the East pilots will work towards a joint contract with the current integrated list, so don't you believe it's ultimately in your pilot group's best interest to sit down with the East and try to work out a solution? Put your ego aside and think pragmatically. That's what your job is in that position.

PCL,

Your complete lack of understanding is obvious. Ask the members of TWA what happened to them!! Many will tell you that because ALPA did NOT properly represent them many went for the left seat to the right seat to the street, so you know not what you speak, AT ALL!!!

ALPA and the ec have failed and have failed big because they are more concerned with being a business than representing pilots. Now I have read your misguided posts on the majors forum and for someone with absolutly zero knowledge of what has and continues to take place you certainly have a lot of faith in ALPA's machine!!!

This has never been about airplanes wide bodies who had them who didn't. This is about following the constitutions and bylaws and ALPA's refusal to follow them plain and simple. Once you get that them maybe you will understand.

Fraternally

WD.

 

[PinnacleDude]

ALPA has been a huge help at the regional airlines they represent. I had the opportunity to hear Mesaba's MEC Chairman, Tom Wychor, speak about how ALPA spent millions to support their pilot group during the SHAM bankruptcy that was foisted upon them. One of the things he said was that ALPA spent more on those guys than they have paid in for dues dollars. ALPA's support of the Mesaba pilot leadership enabled them to come out with arguably a better contract than when they entered bankruptcy.

At Pinnacle, we continue to fight our management on a daily basis. You can ask PCL 128, but the resources that ALPA has poured in on this contract far outweighs what we have paid in as well. Who is currently giving the Skywest or Colgan pilots 2 million to gain a fair contract? Pinnacle management just ain't going to give us a raise. It takes leadership, solidarity, money, and plain hard work to get improvements at some of these more difficult regionals.

As Wychor said the other night, in 2001, the low regional pay sucked down the major pay. ALPA cares tremendously about regional airline contracts - and if you are at a major or plan to be at one - you should too. Neglect or poor contracts at the regional level will further embolden major airline managements and erode major airline contracts. Don't for a minute think that the Northwest mainline guys would start at what they did if Pinnacle guys were making $10 more an hour.

Finally, I have a brother who flies and had a medical issue. ALPA medical saved his ticket and his career. In his own words, "Every dollar I have ever paid or ever will pay was worth it for that one thing."

Everyone has to make their own decision and place their own vote. No person or organization is perfect, but ALPA gives AIRLINE PILOTS a structure to improve their lot and the lot of others in this industry. From personal experience I would vote in ALPA any day of the week and twice on Sunday.

 

[PCL_128]

Your complete lack of understanding is obvious. Ask the members of TWA what happened to them!! Many will tell you that because ALPA did NOT properly represent them many went for the left seat to the right seat to the street, so you know not what you speak, AT ALL!!!

Just because a rank-and-file member perceives that they were screwed by ALPA, doesn't make it so. You seem to be more concerned with emotions and perceptions rather than facts and figures. Please present some actual facts that back up your claim that ALPA intentionally screwed the TWA pilots. Until then, it's nothing but a bunch of hot air.

This has never been about airplanes wide bodies who had them who didn't. This is about following the constitutions and bylaws and ALPA's refusal to follow them plain and simple. Once you get that them maybe you will understand.

ALPA is following the C & BLs. Not sure what they have to do with this issue, however, since the C & BLs do not contain ALPA merger policy. Merger policy is found in the Admin Manual. But ALPA is following that too. Perhaps you could point out a specific part of Section 45 that you feel ALPA is violating.

 

[PCL_128]

Excellent post, PinnacleDude.

 

[Jmoney]

Wiskey driver....

Did you attend the last RJDC meeting? My bet says "yes." You guys are pathetic.......

Just go ahead and tilt at some more windmills. RJDC is a mgmt-contrived org set up for the express purpose of screwing ALPA.

As for the teamsters-you have to be kidding me! We had a jumpseater the other day who represented by the teamsters and says they are nothing but crap! They won't even open their books to the locals to show where their dues go. Besides-when you need help from ALPA, they at least have some idea what highly technical things like "MEL" and "APU" mean.

Just be sure to fill out that RJDC check-as for me, I'll save that money. I don't desire to help mgmt out any more than I have to.
-Rock, Rock