Colgan 3407 Update

[LowlyPropCapt]

The possibility exists that the crew could have mistaken the situation for tailplane icing? In this case, then the aft column movement would have been appropriate..remember while the NTSB, and all the rest of the "hindsight committees" including ourselves on this forum have many hours days weeks to speculate and pour over data, the crew had mere seconds to react to a situation..

True.. But with a tailplane stall the stick shaker would not have gone off. We have had a ton of time to think about this, as you said. Since that accident occured there has been alot of discussion about tailplane icing. Prior the 3407, nobody was talking about it... In fact I think generally knowledge on the subject could be characterized as weak.

Does anyone know what sort of training the Colgan pilots recieved regarding tailplane icing? If they just got the NASA video like most other airlines, then I highly doubt this was foremost in the crew's mind.

 

[hockeypilot44]

Well on that dumbass thought, how about one of the highest paid regionals and LEX? That crew dropped the ball pretty bad too!
So your money theory is screwed!

Yeah. Everyone dreams at the prospect of working at Comair. I was talking about the regionals in general. Not just Colgan.

 

[30West]

I'll remind you. The more qualified pilots apply to the higher paying airlines. The one's left over work at the lower paying airlines. The hiring standards at Colgan were practically non-existent at Colgan a few years ago. There are innocent people dead because of these pilots' mistake. I would not call it smearing, but just because the pilots are dead does not mean they didn't make a mistake. You guys can blame it on the training all you want, but if what the NTSB is saying is true, then this was just horrendous airmanship. These pilots should not have been flying this aircraft to begin with. There are experienced pilots out of work with 1000's of hours that would have no problem flying a Q400 if it paid a decent wage. Unfortunately it doesn't so you are left with some less experienced pilots to fill the void. You should not be building your experience as a 121 captain with an inexperienced pilot in the left seat. The system is broken. There have been a few accidents in the last couple of years at the regionals that could have and should have been avoided. We are very fortunate that there have been as few accidents as there have been with the regionals lack of hiring standards. Instead of raising pay, they lower requirements.

Yes, please "remind" me. Where is your data to back up your statement that qualifications equal pay? Unless you can provide statistical analysis that can directly equate pay to skill level then nobody is interested. Are you telling me you know personally, and have flown with, every SINGLE pilot at Colgan to be so arrogant as to be able to make a blanket statement like that?

Hate to burst your bubble but the hiring standards EVERYWHERE were non existent a few years ago.
Are you also telling me that NO "high paid" pilots in the history of aviation have made stupid mistakes? Aviation history, which you are obviously unaware, is FULL of stupid mistakes made by your so called "thousands of hour" pilots. NOBODY is immune.
Jesus H Christ, did you just start flying yesterday??

Smearing is EXACTLY what you're doing, and in incredibly poor taste.

 

[Big Beer Belly]

Which cause is that? Because all I've seen is speculation, and enough jumping to conclusions to get it in the Olympics. Or are you talking about the cause that will be determined at a future time?

NTSB released excerpts from their preliminary report... Google for it... bottom line, NTSB said it usually waits one year to release findings but it has found the cause as pilot error (flew the aircraft into an approach to stall and improper recovery). Formal relesase I believe is May 12?? Anyone?

BBB

 

[DrewBlows]

With all this talk of "pilot error" it seems obvious...we should just blame the pilots and move on right?

Of course not. Throughout the history of aviation airplanes have crashed and we have learned from mistakes. If we just blamed every accident on pilot error we would not have TCAS, GPWAS, Dark Cockpit, Warning Horns, CRM, or anything else that helps us do our jobs.

Aviation has not been perfected yet. There are better procedures, training methods, software, and hardware yet to be implimented that will save lives in the future. In my opinion it does a great injustice, to everyone who died in this accident, not to explore the factors that surrounded the event and ask how we could do better.

 

[Hugh Johnson]

Yes, please "remind" me. Where is your data to back up your statement that qualifications equal pay? Unless you can provide statistical analysis that can directly equate pay to skill level then nobody is interested. Are you telling me you know personally, and have flown with, every SINGLE pilot at Colgan to be so arrogant as to be able to make a blanket statement like that?

Hate to burst your bubble but the hiring standards EVERYWHERE were non existent a few years ago.
Are you also telling me that NO "high paid" pilots in the history of aviation have made stupid mistakes? Aviation history, which you are obviously unaware, is FULL of stupid mistakes made by your so called "thousands of hour" pilots. NOBODY is immune.
Jesus H Christ, did you just start flying yesterday??

Smearing is EXACTLY what you're doing, and in incredibly poor taste.

Hey hockeypilot, some pretty high paid AA pilots got lost and flew into a mountain in South America. STFU.

 

[Lolikoka]

Income Level and Crashes?

Since someone decided that higher paid pilots are safer, I did a little research on crashes that high paid pilots made. My point is that income level of the pilot and commitment to safety do not correspond. I don't make as much as other pilots, but my wife and kids are relying on me to come home alive. Most of these accidents could have been avoided - sometimes by technology, sometimes by judgment. They all involvoed pilots at U.S. major/legacy carriers making the big bucks for that period of history.

12/20/08 Continental/ Denver/ off runway on t/o
12/8/05 Southwest/ Midway/Snow
11/12/01 AA/ JFK / kicked the tail off the plane
3/5/00 Southwest/ Burbank/too high too fast
6/1/99 AA/ Little Rock/ Landing in thunderstorm
12/20/95 AA/ South America/ CFIT
7/2/94 USAir/CLT/landing in thunderstorm
7/30/92 TWA/JFK/ botched aborted t/o
3/22/92 USAir/ New York/ t/o in ice
2/1/91 USAir/LAX/ 737 lands on Skywest Metro
8/31/88 DAL/DFW/727 t/o without flaps
11/15/87 CAL/DEN/ DC9 t/o in snow
1/1/85 EAL 727 hit mountain in Bolivia
12/18/78 UAL DC8 out of gas in Portland/distracted
5/8/78 National 727 hits the water in P-cola
12/1/74 TWA 727 hits mountain in Virginia (IAD)
9/1/74 EAL DC9 CLT
7/31/73 DAL/BOS/DC9 hits seawall in low approach
12/29/72 EAL/L1011/Everglades - mtc distraction
12/8/72 UAL/MDY/737 Crash after rejected ldg
7/30/71 Pan Am/SFO/overweight t/o
5/3/68 Braniff L188 Electra crash in TS
11/20/67 TWA/CVG/CV880 crash on approach
3/9/67 TWA DC9 hits Baron near Dayton
11/11/65 UAL/SLC/727 crash on approach
2/8/65 EAL/DC7 crashes trying to avoid PAL 707
2/25/64 EAL/MSY/DC8 into Lake Ponchatrain
11/30/62 EAL DC9 crash in New York - pilot error

Pilots are human and make mistakes. We try to learn from it and put procedures in place to stop the error chain. While I would gladly take more money, that won't make me decide to be more safe.

 

[Flywrite]

Since someone decided that higher paid pilots are safer, I did a little research on crashes that high paid pilots made. My point is that income level of the pilot and commitment to safety do not correspond. I don't make as much as other pilots, but my wife and kids are relying on me to come home alive. Most of these accidents could have been avoided - sometimes by technology, sometimes by judgment. They all involvoed pilots at U.S. major/legacy carriers making the big bucks for that period of history.

12/20/08 Continental/ Denver/ off runway on t/o
12/8/05 Southwest/ Midway/Snow
11/12/01 AA/ JFK / kicked the tail off the plane
3/5/00 Southwest/ Burbank/too high too fast
6/1/99 AA/ Little Rock/ Landing in thunderstorm
12/20/95 AA/ South America/ CFIT
7/2/94 USAir/CLT/landing in thunderstorm
7/30/92 TWA/JFK/ botched aborted t/o
3/22/92 USAir/ New York/ t/o in ice
2/1/91 USAir/LAX/ 737 lands on Skywest Metro
8/31/88 DAL/DFW/727 t/o without flaps
11/15/87 CAL/DEN/ DC9 t/o in snow
1/1/85 EAL 727 hit mountain in Bolivia
12/18/78 UAL DC8 out of gas in Portland/distracted
5/8/78 National 727 hits the water in P-cola
12/1/74 TWA 727 hits mountain in Virginia (IAD)
9/1/74 EAL DC9 CLT
7/31/73 DAL/BOS/DC9 hits seawall in low approach
12/29/72 EAL/L1011/Everglades - mtc distraction
12/8/72 UAL/MDY/737 Crash after rejected ldg
7/30/71 Pan Am/SFO/overweight t/o
5/3/68 Braniff L188 Electra crash in TS
11/20/67 TWA/CVG/CV880 crash on approach
3/9/67 TWA DC9 hits Baron near Dayton
11/11/65 UAL/SLC/727 crash on approach
2/8/65 EAL/DC7 crashes trying to avoid PAL 707
2/25/64 EAL/MSY/DC8 into Lake Ponchatrain
11/30/62 EAL DC9 crash in New York - pilot error

Pilots are human and make mistakes. We try to learn from it and put procedures in place to stop the error chain. While I would gladly take more money, that won't make me decide to be more safe.

While I do agree that pilot pay has little to do with accidents and errors, not all of those listed were caused by pilot error. I'm not going to look up the whole list, but If you read the report on the USAir/Skywest runway collision in LAX in 91 that was controller error and ATC shortcomings, with no blame on either crew. Tests showed that the Metro would have been completely invisible to the USAir crew on final.

 

[OurMoney1]

6 P121 Training Programs and never been instructed to lower the nose. In fact all taught level pitch control with max power, the idea being let the engines pull you out of the upset. I even remember in the late 1990's the FAA went through a window where altitude loss during the stalls was an UNSAT, but they moved away from that in the last couple of years. I have seen guys lose 400 to 600 feet in the sims and still progress through manuevers.

I wonder if the thinking will once again change since life has been lost.

 

[hockeypilot44]

Our industry has become much safer due to the crashes listed above. CRM, GPWS, most aircraft spoilers go down when thrust levers are advanced, etc. are all results of accidents. In today's current environment, most pilot-error accidents are at the regional level. I have flown at both the regionals and majors. I can tell you that the attitude towards safety is much greater at the majors.