Colgan 3407 CVR Transcript

[LazyLightnin']

That is not where it spoke to me.
It leaves me asking how can someone get into any seat in a turboprop, and *NOT* know what a chip detect was?

Then in this case you've got your priorities extremely out of order.

The captain knew what a chip detector was. Obviously. He explained it to her. But what good does that do when you forget that airspeed = good?

 

[goodgig]

Then in this case you've got your priorities extremely out of order.

The captain knew what a chip detector was. Obviously. He explained it to her. But what good does that do when you forget that airspeed = good?

??? I don't think they were talking about a chip detector going off on this particular flight. It just came up in conversation. The fact still remains the pilot got through training, and at least one checkride and oral, and did not know what a chip detector was. (?)_

 

[Thurman Merman]

That is not where it spoke to me.
It leaves me asking how can someone get into any seat in a turboprop, and *NOT* know what a chip detect was?

To her credit it was the first turbine airplane she had flown and there is no "CHIP DETECT" light in the Q400. It is a FADEC airplane, where you might get a POWERPLANT message and the computer would flame out the engine more than likely. This is a Dash 8, but a vastly different Dash 8 and the same type is a little of a stretch.

 

[LazyLightnin']

??? I don't think they were talking about a chip detector going off on this particular flight. It just came up in conversation. The fact still remains the pilot got through training, and at least one checkride and oral, and did not know what a chip detector was. (?)_

And I'm telling you that it is irrelevant because she didn't crash the airplane.

Having said that, I see your point. I always did. Just don't think it's got anything to do with basic aerodynamic fundamentals (the cause of the accident).

 

[Papa Woody]

My underwear has a chip detector.

It'll probably go off soon.....it's been about 5 days...

 

[HalinTexas]

Q400 stall recovery:

First indication of stall (stick shaker):
-lower nose
Positive Rate (increase in airspeed):
-gear up
Vfri (flap retraction speed):
-flaps up, the only time you touch the flaps prior
to Vfri is if you have flaps 35 then you retract
to flaps 15 otherwise flap 15 is left until
acceleration to Vfri.

That sounds like the TP procedures I remember.

To recap: The captain takes about 26 seconds at FI, or at a very reduced power setting, to set up the stall. The speed he was decelerating to was not briefed.

Stick shaker was not reponded to. He had more than his experience (including all training) could handle. He fought the pusher.

The FO raised the flaps with being commanded. Want do you think this did to the CAs workload? To the stall speed? Answer: Both increased.

Solution: More experienced personnel, at least in the left seat, and more/better training for all. Another tragedy that could have been avoided.

 

[Abernathy]

That sounds like the TP procedures I remember.

To recap: The captain takes about 26 seconds at FI, or at a very reduced power setting, to set up the stall. The speed he was decelerating to was not briefed.

Stick shaker was not reponded to. He had more than his experience (including all training) could handle. He fought the pusher.

The FO raised the flaps with being commanded. Want do you think this did to the CAs workload? To the stall speed? Answer: Both increased.

Solution: More experienced personnel, at least in the left seat, and more/better training for all. Another tragedy that could have been avoided.

Is it at all concerning that this particular CA had failed 5 checkrides, including a couple at Colgan? No one is immune from failing a checkride or two. But I'm not gonna lie 5 seems like a bit much.

 

[Airline Driver]

Here is the NTSB animation. I think it speeks for itself. Sad sad sad!!!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lxywEE1kK6I

 

[JSky26]

Here is the NTSB animation. I think it speeks for itself. Sad sad sad!!!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lxywEE1kK6I

Speechless....

 

[SEVEN]

Here is the NTSB animation. I think it speeks for itself. Sad sad sad!!!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lxywEE1kK6I

I want to yell at the screen....Push the Power up!!!

Sad.

 

[PeanuckleCRJ]

...and lower the damn nose.

 

[twott driver]

ugly ugly ugly

 

[sarin m92]

Has anyone noticed this: The aircraft is slowing for landing. The Captain calls for flaps 15. The flap handle is moved, the FO says “uhhh” then the stick shaker comes on. The Captain says "Jesus Christ". The FO says “I put the flaps up”
So instead of putting the flaps to 15, the FO actually raised the flaps?
Am I reading the transcript correctly?

22:16:23.5 (C) "Flaps fifteen before landing checklist"
22:16:26.0 (sound of flap handle movement)
22:16:26.6 (FO) "Uhhh"
22:16:27.4 Stick shaker
autopilot disconnect, horn, increase engine noise
(C) "Jesus Christ"
22:17:37.1 (FO) "I put the flaps up"

Horn and stick shaker continue to impact...


The Captains nose up recovery aggravated the stall. However, seems to me she may have led the Captain down the path to the stall.
I don’t think she raised them in response to the stall warning. Rather, she raised them prior to the stall and that is what caused the stall.


Ice on the wing, heavy aircraft, increased stall speed, inattention, raise the flaps…Hmm.
Tragic.

What do you think?
Nothing on the news about her comments after moving the flap. Not sure if NTSB has commented on this segment of the transcript.

 

[Flyer1015]

Don't blame just the pilots, how about blaming the training program and the never ending issues of long working days and associated tiredness/fatigue, which plays in level of alertness?

And enough crap already about "inexperienced" pilots crashing this plane. Don't forget the last crash of a major airline and the pilot actions. Fully smashing a control surface (rudder) in both directions to the full stop, and snapping off the tail. Boom, 265+ dead.

 

[CA1900]

Rather, she raised them prior to the stall and that is what caused the stall.

The animation from the FDR doesn't show that, though. The stick shaker starts as the flaps are moving from 5 to 10; she doesn't retract them until well into the stall. I don't think it helped the recovery, but the plane stalled before the flaps were retracted.

 

[Thurman Merman]

I put this on another thread as well:

"A factor not discussed is the stupid "Increase ref speed switch." When in icing conditions and turned on it raises the low speed que about 20 knots hence the necessity for getting the corrected ref speeds for Icing conditions, or just remembering to bumb up your ref speed +15/+20 depending on flap setting. When the shaker occured it was a system manufactured event due to this little switch being moved to the on position. The stall was a result of the sudden pitch up. When the shaker occured there was still plenty of flying speed."

 

[FastJP4]

Very sad, and unfortunately should never have occurred.

I see alot of people pointing the finger at this guy being a PFT'r. While I don't agree with PFT - it seems to me that this guy must have passed some Colgan FO checkrides, a Colgan Saab upgrade checkride, and a Colgan Dash type ride.

I imagine the Colgan training department is definately on the hot seat. And I couldn't agree more - 5 busts seems like it would indicate some problems. How many of those busts were at Colgan? Anyone can have a bad ride - but 5?

RIP to all onboard.

 

[check6]

Here is the NTSB animation. I think it speeks for itself. Sad sad sad!!!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lxywEE1kK6I

As a Q400 driver this animation saddens me. I watched it several times.

At around 180 knots the gear was called down. As part of that flow the condition levers went to max. Now, putting the condition levers to max creates a very large amount of drag. The blades are just over 13 ft. in diameter.

It looked to me that after the gear and condition levers were brought up, there was not much power movement until the stick shaker at which the power levers are increased.

All of this has been established earlier in this thread, but as for the Q400-esque stuff:

Normally, with the "Ref Speeds" switch placed to "increase", with each additional increment of flaps the "low speed cue" will decrease. It is noticeable if at a safe airspeed.

I noticed the "flaps 15" call was made at a very low speed. As said before, additional flaps would lower the "red tape" or low speed cue if the speed was higher and the AOA was lower. I think, the combination of speed and AOA, prevented the low speed cue from dropping due to the airplane from being on the backside of the power curve. In other words, I'd say the airplane's computer knew what was happening before the pilot did.

In icing conditions, I can honestly say I've never seen the speed that low without having already configured.

 

[cheerios2]

it didnt matter what the FO did with the flaps... the plane was never going to start flying again if the ********************ing nose was never lowered.

 

[LazyLightnin']

I imagine the Colgan training department is definately on the hot seat. And I couldn't agree more - 5 busts seems like it would indicate some problems. How many of those busts were at Colgan? Anyone can have a bad ride - but 5?

The two top training officials at Colgan resigned in the recent weeks. Probably just a coincidence.