Colgan 3407 CVR Transcript

[RAIMnotavailabl]

What about messing with flaps at all with an iced up plane?

How about tailplane icing? I'm sure you all have seen the NASA video with the Twin Otter ice cube?

 

[Browntothebone]

HOT-2
I've never seen icing conditions. I've never deiced. I've never seen any—
I've never experienced any of that. I don't want to have to experience that
and make those kinds of calls. you know I'dve freaked out. I'dve have like
seen this much ice and thought oh my gosh we were going to crash.

 

[WSurf]

So with the stall warning still activated you retract the flaps?

Of course not. First off you should never, ever get into that situation. The only time in training we see the stick shaker is during a windshear recovery. Or if you are responding from a EGPWS warning for terrian. Another situation you shouldn't find yourself in.

The question was does the flaps come up before the gear? Yes they do in the dash on a go around.

However if your stalling, screw the gear and flaps. Airspeed is what you want. The airplane doesn't give a sh$t if the gear and flaps are out, it only knows it needs a certain Airspeed to fly. I think the FO was just trying to do somthing, but I think in recovery if she retracted the flaps it coulda made the problem worse. Once the flaps are retracted that stall speed is now even more increased.

Sorry if I anwered the question the wrong way the first time.

 

[WSurf]

What about messing with flaps at all with an iced up plane?

How about tailplane icing? I'm sure you all have seen the NASA video with the Twin Otter ice cube?

There are a few times if the ice is bad enough in the Dash that flaps 0 landing might be better.

But you rarely run into that. Again thats where experience comes in.

 

[TOOL CRIB]

Of course not. First off you should never, ever get into that situation. The only time in training we see the stick shaker is during a windshear recovery. Or if you are responding from a EGPWS warning for terrian. Another situation you shouldn't find yourself in.

The question was does the flaps come up before the gear? Yes they do in the dash on a go around.

However if your stalling, screw the gear and flaps. Airspeed is what you want. The airplane doesn't give a sh$t if the gear and flaps are out, it only knows it needs a certain Airspeed to fly. I think the FO was just trying to do somthing, but I think in recovery if she retracted the flaps it coulda made the problem worse. Once the flaps are retracted that stall speed is now even more increased.

Sorry if I anwered the question the wrong way the first time.

Airspeed is not what you want in a stall. You want a lower angle of attack, so push the stick forward. Unfortunately the ground sometimes gets in the way of doing that.

 

[WSurf]

Airspeed is not what you want in a stall. You want a lower angle of attack, so push the stick forward. Unfortunately the ground sometimes gets in the way of doing that.

Duh! By lowering the pitch aren't you increasing Airspeed? Yes Airspeed is what you want! If that means lowering the nose you do it. Sorry I didn't make it simplier for you.

 

[regionaltard]

Hopefully two pilots discussing their lack of experience before stalling a perfectly good airplane and killing a bunch of people will prompt a good hard look at this industry.

 

[MEXICANFLYBOY]

sad news!

 

[WSurf]

Where did you go to school to say Airspeed isn't what you want during a stall? Please don't tell me your another Colgan Pilot?

 

[Amish RakeFight]

From him talking about flying in Florida to this quote....it looks like the Capt. was a former Gulfstream dude. This isn't going to be pretty.....​

40 something Marvin gets tired of his cubicle and drops $30K for 250 hrs as a paid FO before hiring on at Colgan with 625 hrs. Why hasnt this come out in the media yet? The public should know about these shady PFT practices out there. It needs to stop for so many reasons.

 

[UALRATT]

http://www.ntsb.gov/events/2009/Buffalo-NY/AnimationDescription.htm

 

[RAIMnotavailabl]

Experience and good experienced trainers doing the training.

When will the corporate types in all transportation industries understand that safety comes from training and experience of training.

They need to pay people enough, put money into mx and make the experienced people want to stay.

I left aviation in 2006 and drove 18 wheelers cross country. Same job as flying but your bed is right behind you.

This sort of thing awakens old memories of my time flying and wrenching on airplanes that led me to leave the industry. I rarely ride in the back of the AL tubes anymore.

Be safe out there.

 

[CEO silly sap]

I'm going to go re-read fly the wing by Capt Webb.

I can stall an airplane at 200kts, but the angle of attack has to be just right.

 

[jehtplane]

Where did you go to school to say Airspeed isn't what you want during a stall? Please don't tell me your another Colgan Pilot?

Uh, you can stall an airplane at any airspeed.

 

[WSurf]

I'm going to go re-read fly the wing by Capt Webb.

I can stall an airplane at 200kts, but the angle of attack has to be just right.

Yep, ever wing has a angle of attack that will stall the wing. But if you have a airspeed that will continue to allow flow over the wing and attach to it then it will fly.

Hell a F-15 will climb straight up as long as it has the power to keep a certain Airspeed. Once that speed falls he has one option and thats the lower the AOA to help keep that Speed to keep the wings flying.

I think we can all agree that in this situation "Colgan" that the AOA shoulda been lowered to increase the speed to allow for air flow attachment over the wing.

And yes you can do an accelerated stall in a plane. But its still a matter of airflow over the wing.

 

[UALRATT]

Duh! By lowering the pitch aren't you increasing Airspeed? Yes Airspeed is what you want! If that means lowering the nose you do it. Sorry I didn't make it simplier for you.

I'll be the ref here and give this round to Tool Crab who is ABSOLUTELY right, that it is AOA that must be reduced to recover from a stall. Aerodynamics 101 - an airplane will stall at any airspeed, configuration, weight, etc, etc. These are all variables in this equation. AOA is the only constant. Surf, maybe a refresher course before you carry your next passenger.

I hate the internet...

 

[UALRATT]

Yep, ever wing has a angle of attack that will stall the wing. But if you have a airspeed that will continue to allow flow over the wing and attach to it then it will fly.

Hell a F-15 will climb straight up as long as it has the power to keep a certain Airspeed. Once that speed falls he has one option and thats the lower the AOA to help keep that Speed to keep the wings flying.

I think we can all agree that in this situation "Colgan" that the AOA shoulda been lowered to increase the speed to allow for air flow attachment over the wing.

And yes you can do an accelerated stall in a plane. But its still a matter of airflow over the wing.

You are confusing energy and aerodynamics...

 

[WSurf]

I'll be the ref here and give this round to Tool Crab who is ABSOLUTELY right, that it is AOA that must be reduced to recover from a stall. Aerodynamics 101 - an airplane will stall at any airspeed, configuration, weight, etc, etc. These are all variables in this equation. AOA is the only constant. Surf, maybe a refresher course before you carry your next passenger.

I hate the internet...

LOL, I wasn't arguing lowering the AOA. I was saying that you have to get Airspeed (airflow) over the wing fast during a stall. And yes lowering the AOA does that. And you do have to sacrifice Altitude for that.

I hate the internet..

 

[WSurf]

You are confusing energy and aerodynamics...

Correct, I haven't instructed in over 10 years. Ty

 

[TCAS]

Hell a F-15 will climb straight up as long as it has the power to keep a certain Airspeed. Once that speed falls he has one option and thats the lower the AOA to help keep that Speed to keep the wings flying.

There is just so much wrong in the above statement I don't even know where to begin to start.

With respect to an aerodynamic stall, angle of attack and airspeed...

An airfoil will stall when it reaches or goes beyond its critical angle of attack. The wing will become unstalled by decreasing the angle of attack to an angle less than its critical angle of attack.

Airspeed, in conjuntion with angle of attack, will determine the amount of lift that is generated by the wing. No air over the wing, no lift. Airflow over the wing will give it lift. Increasing the angle of attack will give the wing additional lift until the angle of attack reaches its critical angle of attack. When critical angle of attack is reached the wing stops producing lift regardless of the amount of airspeed.