Colgan 3407 CVR Transcript

[UALRATT]

http://www.ntsb.gov/events/2009/Buffalo-NY/AnimationDescription.htm

 

[RAIMnotavailabl]

Experience and good experienced trainers doing the training.

When will the corporate types in all transportation industries understand that safety comes from training and experience of training.

They need to pay people enough, put money into mx and make the experienced people want to stay.

I left aviation in 2006 and drove 18 wheelers cross country. Same job as flying but your bed is right behind you.

This sort of thing awakens old memories of my time flying and wrenching on airplanes that led me to leave the industry. I rarely ride in the back of the AL tubes anymore.

Be safe out there.

 

[CEO silly sap]

I'm going to go re-read fly the wing by Capt Webb.

I can stall an airplane at 200kts, but the angle of attack has to be just right.

 

[jehtplane]

Where did you go to school to say Airspeed isn't what you want during a stall? Please don't tell me your another Colgan Pilot?

Uh, you can stall an airplane at any airspeed.

 

[WSurf]

I'm going to go re-read fly the wing by Capt Webb.

I can stall an airplane at 200kts, but the angle of attack has to be just right.

Yep, ever wing has a angle of attack that will stall the wing. But if you have a airspeed that will continue to allow flow over the wing and attach to it then it will fly.

Hell a F-15 will climb straight up as long as it has the power to keep a certain Airspeed. Once that speed falls he has one option and thats the lower the AOA to help keep that Speed to keep the wings flying.

I think we can all agree that in this situation "Colgan" that the AOA shoulda been lowered to increase the speed to allow for air flow attachment over the wing.

And yes you can do an accelerated stall in a plane. But its still a matter of airflow over the wing.

 

[UALRATT]

Duh! By lowering the pitch aren't you increasing Airspeed? Yes Airspeed is what you want! If that means lowering the nose you do it. Sorry I didn't make it simplier for you.

I'll be the ref here and give this round to Tool Crab who is ABSOLUTELY right, that it is AOA that must be reduced to recover from a stall. Aerodynamics 101 - an airplane will stall at any airspeed, configuration, weight, etc, etc. These are all variables in this equation. AOA is the only constant. Surf, maybe a refresher course before you carry your next passenger.

I hate the internet...

 

[UALRATT]

Yep, ever wing has a angle of attack that will stall the wing. But if you have a airspeed that will continue to allow flow over the wing and attach to it then it will fly.

Hell a F-15 will climb straight up as long as it has the power to keep a certain Airspeed. Once that speed falls he has one option and thats the lower the AOA to help keep that Speed to keep the wings flying.

I think we can all agree that in this situation "Colgan" that the AOA shoulda been lowered to increase the speed to allow for air flow attachment over the wing.

And yes you can do an accelerated stall in a plane. But its still a matter of airflow over the wing.

You are confusing energy and aerodynamics...

 

[WSurf]

I'll be the ref here and give this round to Tool Crab who is ABSOLUTELY right, that it is AOA that must be reduced to recover from a stall. Aerodynamics 101 - an airplane will stall at any airspeed, configuration, weight, etc, etc. These are all variables in this equation. AOA is the only constant. Surf, maybe a refresher course before you carry your next passenger.

I hate the internet...

LOL, I wasn't arguing lowering the AOA. I was saying that you have to get Airspeed (airflow) over the wing fast during a stall. And yes lowering the AOA does that. And you do have to sacrifice Altitude for that.

I hate the internet..

 

[WSurf]

You are confusing energy and aerodynamics...

Correct, I haven't instructed in over 10 years. Ty

 

[TCAS]

Hell a F-15 will climb straight up as long as it has the power to keep a certain Airspeed. Once that speed falls he has one option and thats the lower the AOA to help keep that Speed to keep the wings flying.

There is just so much wrong in the above statement I don't even know where to begin to start.

With respect to an aerodynamic stall, angle of attack and airspeed...

An airfoil will stall when it reaches or goes beyond its critical angle of attack. The wing will become unstalled by decreasing the angle of attack to an angle less than its critical angle of attack.

Airspeed, in conjuntion with angle of attack, will determine the amount of lift that is generated by the wing. No air over the wing, no lift. Airflow over the wing will give it lift. Increasing the angle of attack will give the wing additional lift until the angle of attack reaches its critical angle of attack. When critical angle of attack is reached the wing stops producing lift regardless of the amount of airspeed.

 

[WSurf]

Surf, maybe a refresher course before you carry your next passenger.

I hate the internet...

LOL, I will try not to stall my Dash today.

 

[UALRATT]

Correct, I haven't instructed in over 10 years. Ty

Very Sad. What does instructing have to do with professional knowledge?

 

[Singlecoil]

Please quit while you are behind Wsurf. You sound like a moron, but I'm sure you're just confused. An F-15 can go straight up because it has a thrust to weight ratio greater than 1. You can go straight up in a Cessna (briefly) and not stall the wing at 10 knots IAS. You can also stall the Cessna at 120 knots. The instant the angle of attack is lowered, the stall is broken, but airspeed hasn't increased yet. Airspeed increases as a result of the stall recovery, it isn't the stall recovery in an of itself.

 

[CRJ puppy]

Yep. As has been said...it's all about reducing the AOA to less than the critical angle of attack for the given conditions...airspeed, configuration, weight, cg, etc. And in this case (unlike a go-around) raising flaps, gear etc would be a bad thing.

 

[twott driver]

WSurf, sometimes it's better to keep quiet than open your mouth and confirm your lack of understanding.

Regarding the crews' discussion about their lack of experience, and then promptly crashing a perfectly good plane into the ground, I couldn't agree more. This won't be the last crash attributed to lack of experience/training/piloting ability unfortunately.

 

[Andy Neill]

HOT-2
I've never seen icing conditions. I've never deiced. I've never seen any—
I've never experienced any of that. I don't want to have to experience that
and make those kinds of calls. you know I'dve freaked out. I'dve have like seen this much ice and thought oh my gosh we were going to crash.

This has been quoted by several people on several threads as if that was her current situation. A minute earlier she said:

I had more actual time on my first day of IOE than I did in the sixteen hundred hours I had when I came here.​

and less than 30 seconds after the cited segment she said:

but I'm glad to have seen oh— you know now I'm so much more​

comfortable with it all.

In other words, although she had no exposure to icing and deicing before Colgan, she had repeated exposure to it since arriving and she was now more comfortable with it.

 

[AWACoff]

DUH! Learn aerodynamics! From your asinine argument, a Dash can't slow down in a descent. Hopefully somebody publishes a book on Aerodynamics for Dummies...you need it. You can stall at any speed based on AOA.

Duh! By lowering the pitch aren't you increasing Airspeed? Yes Airspeed is what you want! If that means lowering the nose you do it. Sorry I didn't make it simplier for you.

 

[scotts]

Thanks to all who posted factual stall recovery info...

Now, back to the blame game.

If you want to focus on where the blame for this accident originates, all you need to do is look at the RFP process for regional airline flying and the low standards the FAA imposes on all airlines for their training program.

The "major" airlines put out flying to bid on. The various regionals bid for this flying knowing that the lowest bidder who can actually produce the flying will get the award. For the winning regional airline to survive financially, they have to structure the company in a way that will allow some small profit for the owners/shareholders. One of the ways any airline will do that is to create the least cost training program that the FAA will approve. This leads to a myriad of issues with inadequate training of inexperienced new-hires and upgrade candidates. The FAA signs off on the program after examining it, thus giving some measure of defense to the company when the worst happens.

What we have is a broken system enabled by a government agency at odds with itself. The FAA is charged with promoting aviation, commercial and otherwise. If it increases the standards that must be complied with by all airlines in their training program, they see that as suffocating the very thing they are charged with promoting.

The only way this deadly situation is going to change is if Congress forces them to. Even if you hear rhetoric emanating from congressional hearings, don't believe anything is going to change until you read the new standards that the FAA enacts as a result of pressure from Congress.

 

[Jar Jar]

I'm amazed at how much we can learn about the crew from this CVR transcript, I've had very few flights where both crewmembers provide such a detailed history of their flying experience, and here we have it on a cvr tape.

I honestly hope that some form of regulatory change takes place as a result of the problems so clearly highlighted by this crew with respect to the regional airline industry as it is today. Regardless of errors made, I'm sure the crew of 3407 would want us to learn from their experience and hopefully they can help make our industry just a little bit safer.

 

[Jar Jar]

The FAA is charged with promoting aviation, commercial and otherwise. If it increases the standards that must be complied with by all arilines in their training program, they see that as suffocating the very thing they are charged with promoting.

The only way this deadly situation is going to change is if Congress forces them to. Even if you hear rhetoric emanating from congressional hearings, don't believe anything is going to change until you read the new standards that the FAA enacts as a result of pressure from Congress.

The FAA mision no longer includes the promotion of aviation, that changed a few years ago. That was correct, just outdated. Their new mission has been for a few years now "To provide the safest, most efficient aerospace system in the world". http://www.faa.gov/about/Mission/

The real question is, how much safer than the rest of the world do we want to be? I'll take all I can get, if it means more training - sign me up.

 

[scotts]

The FAA mision no longer includes the promotion of aviation, that changed a few years ago. That was correct, just outdated. Their new mission has been for a few years now "To provide the safest, most efficient aerospace system in the world". http://www.faa.gov/about/Mission/

The real question is, how much safer than the rest of the world do we want to be? I'll take all I can get, if it means more training - sign me up.

The stated mission could well have changed. I was writing from what I remembered without looking it up first.

Regardless, the FAA won't change it's standards unless forced to by external pressure. You can bet that airline industry lobbyists will be standing alongside and in opposition to anyone trying to get them to raise standards. If it will cost the major airlines more money, they are going to oppose it. Perhaps the regional airlines would welcome increased standards imposed on them. Then they would be able justify more comprehensive training as being something that they are forced to do.

 

[Jar Jar]

Regardless, the FAA won't change it's standards unless forced to by external pressure. You can bet that airline industry lobbyists will be standing alongside and in opposition to anyone trying to get them to raise standards.

Exactly. We can only hope that the public outcry would exceed the capacity of organizations like the ATA to lobby the FAA.

 

[PUNISHER]

This is just sad. The industry needs to say no to PFT.

It's ridiculous how bad PFTrs can compromise safety. I've had to experience this first hand. In the past 2 years the company I work for has been hiring PFT FOs and there is no doubt that the quality of our FOs have droped drastically.

I know some of you will argue that a properly trained pilot with 300tt can be just as good as a pilot with 1200tt. That may be true but there is a lot to be said about tt and actual operating experience.

My hats off to all of you that have to fly with inexperienced crewmembers day in and day out.

 

[Flyer1015]

HOT-2
I've never seen icing conditions. I've never deiced. I've never seen any—
I've never experienced any of that. I don't want to have to experience that
and make those kinds of calls. you know I'dve freaked out. I'dve have like
seen this much ice and thought oh my gosh we were going to crash.

TAKE THIS IN CONTEXT!!!!!!!!! You, along with the media, are throwing her under the bus.

Her point was coming from her background/training in AZ and how there wasn't much icing there. She was talking about her first days at Colgan, and not upgrading until she had AT LEAST one winter season done under her belt. This comment was regarding back in from where she came from. It did NOT mean that it was true during this flight. The media is painting a picture that she was "fearful" and "scared" , but that is NOT the case with the comments made, when you LOOK AT IT IN CONTEXT!

 

[satpak77]

This accident is sad, offensive, and an embarassment. PFT should be BANNED.

"In my day" to get hired at a regional, flying a SF-340 as a mope FO, you needed 2500 TT, 500 of which must have been multi time, usually single pilot flying trashed Barons or Navajos night IFR, carrying checks.

And 98% of those guys had been flying since high school or college, and pumped gas at the FBO as "apprenticeship."

Now? PFT? "Career changer" becomes "Airline Captain" at age 47? What happened to the industry? "Never been in ice" WTF YOU F-- SH--in me?

Sad, embarrasing, and offensive.

 

[goodgig]

Speaks volumes to me:

HOT-1
get in uh start up number two and we're doing the paperwork and all of a
sudden we get bing. look— it looked— it was engine lookup light. I went
oh crap that's not good. I looked up it was chip detect. right chip detect.
21:39:43.3
HOT-2
what's that?
21:39:43.7
HOT-1
what— what that— what that's doing is detecting chips of metal in the
engine.
21:39:48.4
HOT-2
oh.

 

[Thurman Merman]

In some airplanes, yep? I haven't flown the dash of any series... I wonder if Colgan trains approaches to stall only, where maybe getting rid of flaps will reduce the drag more than the lift and allow the plane to accelerate in a more timely manner. Any Q drivers could speak up.


Most of the planes I've flown you leave the configuration alone until the stall event is over, then clean it up.

Q400 stall recovery:

First indication of stall (stick shaker):
-lower nose
Positive Rate (increase in airspeed):
-gear up
Vfri (flap retraction speed):
-flaps up, the only time you touch the flaps prior
to Vfri is if you have flaps 35 then you retract
to flaps 15 otherwise flap 15 is left until
acceleration to Vfri.

 

[LazyLightnin']

Speaks volumes to me:

HOT-1
get in uh start up number two and we're doing the paperwork and all of a
sudden we get bing. look— it looked— it was engine lookup light. I went
oh crap that's not good. I looked up it was chip detect. right chip detect.
21:39:43.3
HOT-2
what's that?
21:39:43.7
HOT-1
what— what that— what that's doing is detecting chips of metal in the
engine.
21:39:48.4
HOT-2
oh.

Normally, I'd be the first one to join with you guys on bashing the female pilot, but in this circumstance, should she have been the one acting as pilot flying there wouldn't have been a crash.

Sure, she should have spoken up, and that comes with having no balls. But don't forget that the balls in the left is the one who stalled the aircraft over the marker. What was he looking at? Sounds to me she was paying more attention in the first place.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

40 something Marvin gets tired of his cubicle and drops $30K for 250 hrs as a paid FO before hiring on at Colgan with 625 hrs. Why hasnt this come out in the media yet? The public should know about these shady PFT practices out there. It needs to stop for so many reasons.

This is just sad. The industry needs to say no to PFT.

It's ridiculous how bad PFTrs can compromise safety. I've had to experience this first hand. In the past 2 years the company I work for has been hiring PFT FOs and there is no doubt that the quality of our FOs have droped drastically.

Free market capitalism....... it will be the hidden driving force behind keeping the status quo.....

In addition, embracing it unfettered and thhen calling for the banishing of PFT is contradicting.....


Regulation?

 

[goodgig]

Normally, I'd be the first one to join with you guys on bashing the female pilot, but in this circumstance, should she have been the one acting as pilot flying there wouldn't have been a crash.

Sure, she should have spoken up, and that comes with having no balls. But don't forget that the balls in the left is the one who stalled the aircraft over the marker. What was he looking at? Sounds to me she was paying more attention in the first place.

That is not where it spoke to me.
It leaves me asking how can someone get into any seat in a turboprop, and *NOT* know what a chip detect was?