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Colgan 3407 CVR Transcript

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This exchange says it all, sadly.





HOT-1​
but uh as a matter of fact I got hired with about six hundred and twenty
five hours here.
22:11:37.6
HOT-2
oh wow.
22:11:39.4
HOT-1
uh.
22:11:39.9
HOT-2​
that's not much for uh back when you got hired.
Click to expand...






HOT-2​


I've never seen icing conditions. I've never deiced. I've never seen any—
I've never experienced any of that. I don't want to have to experience that
and make those kinds of calls. you know I'dve freaked out. I'dve have like​
​
​

seen this much ice and thought oh my gosh we were going to crash.​
Click to expand...
 
It is extremely sad. Folks - remember the precious lives of all the people we are carrying behind you in that airplane. Safety is job number one.

22:16:34.8 HOT-1
Jesus Christ.
22:16:35.4 CAM
[sound similar to stick shaker lasting until end of recording]
22:16:37.1 HOT-2
I put the flaps up.
22:16:40.2 CAM
[sound of two clicks]
22:16:42.2 HOT-1
[sound of grunt] *ther bear.
22:16:45.8 HOT-2
should the gear up?
22:16:46.8 HOT-1
gear up oh #.
22:16:50.1 CAM
[increase in ambient noise]
22:16:51.9 HOT-1
we're down.
22:16:51.9 CAM
[sound of thump]
22:16:52.0 HOT-2
we're [sound of scream]
 
Last edited:
wow, it's humbling to read someone's thoughts and words right before they die.... Lord have mercy on their souls.

one question: does the checklist call for flaps up before the gear in the Q..isn't that what they did, and didn't the girl do it without the call from the capt?
 
erikgigem said:
It is extremely sad. Safety is job number one.
Click to expand...
Too bad the airlines that hire pilots don't feel the same way. It seems to me that filling the front seats at the cheapest cost is the trend. To quote my COO in a former recurrent ground school class: "you guys (pilots) are just another expense."
With that mentality by the people at the top, you're going to get what you pay for in the long run. Can't have your cake and eat it too. If you want to go cheap, you're going to compromise safety. That's a fact.
 
Last edited:
climbhappy said:
wow, it's humbling to read someone's thoughts and words right before they die.... Lord have mercy on their souls.

one question: does the checklist call for flaps up before the gear in the Q..isn't that what they did, and didn't the girl do it without the call from the capt?
Click to expand...

Yes, at PDT on our Dash's we call for ToGo Power and then flaps to 5 degrees. Once a postive rate is established then the Gear is called up. Out of 1000' agl the 5 degree is retracted.
 
Once they got the stick shaker it seems like they kind of just sat there. She said flaps are 5 or something but thats it. Its like they just stared at the ground.
 
Overall a very sad deal indeed. However several things come to mind as far as the FAA and NTSB may look into more in depth.

Overall experience level of both pilots and will they increase standards. Which in my opinion they should. That being said you can bet Colgan's Training and Standards Department will be on the chopping block (maybe the whole company).

It has been a focus now of several individuals and aviation safety action groups to investigate these pilot factories and PFT airlines. And they should.

Unfortunately several people died because of a lack of experience and that is the bottom line.
 

22:11:39.9
HOT-2 that's not much for uh back when you got hired.
22:11:42.5
HOT-1 no but uh out of that six and a quarter two hundred fifty hours was uh part
one twenty one turbine. multi engine turbine.
22:11:50.0
Click to expand...

HOT-2 oh that's right yeah.
​
Click to expand...


From him talking about flying in Florida to this quote....it looks like the Capt. was a former Gulfstream dude. This isn't going to be pretty.....

​
​
​
​
​

 
WSurf said:
Yes, at PDT on our Dash's we call for ToGo Power and then flaps to 5 degrees. Once a postive rate is established then the Gear is called up. Out of 1000' agl the 5 degree is retracted.
Click to expand...

So with the stall warning still activated you retract the flaps?
 
LJ45 said:
So with the stall warning still activated you retract the flaps?
Click to expand...


In some airplanes, yep? I haven't flown the dash of any series... I wonder if Colgan trains approaches to stall only, where maybe getting rid of flaps will reduce the drag more than the lift and allow the plane to accelerate in a more timely manner. Any Q drivers could speak up.


Most of the planes I've flown you leave the configuration alone until the stall event is over, then clean it up.
 
Last edited:
What about messing with flaps at all with an iced up plane?

How about tailplane icing? I'm sure you all have seen the NASA video with the Twin Otter ice cube?
 
HOT-2
I've never seen icing conditions. I've never deiced. I've never seen any—
I've never experienced any of that. I don't want to have to experience that
and make those kinds of calls. you know I'dve freaked out. I'dve have like
seen this much ice and thought oh my gosh we were going to crash.
 
LJ45 said:
So with the stall warning still activated you retract the flaps?
Click to expand...

Of course not. First off you should never, ever get into that situation. The only time in training we see the stick shaker is during a windshear recovery. Or if you are responding from a EGPWS warning for terrian. Another situation you shouldn't find yourself in.

The question was does the flaps come up before the gear? Yes they do in the dash on a go around.

However if your stalling, screw the gear and flaps. Airspeed is what you want. The airplane doesn't give a sh$t if the gear and flaps are out, it only knows it needs a certain Airspeed to fly. I think the FO was just trying to do somthing, but I think in recovery if she retracted the flaps it coulda made the problem worse. Once the flaps are retracted that stall speed is now even more increased.

Sorry if I anwered the question the wrong way the first time.
 
RAIMnotavailabl said:
What about messing with flaps at all with an iced up plane?

How about tailplane icing? I'm sure you all have seen the NASA video with the Twin Otter ice cube?
Click to expand...


There are a few times if the ice is bad enough in the Dash that flaps 0 landing might be better.

But you rarely run into that. Again thats where experience comes in.
 
WSurf said:
Of course not. First off you should never, ever get into that situation. The only time in training we see the stick shaker is during a windshear recovery. Or if you are responding from a EGPWS warning for terrian. Another situation you shouldn't find yourself in.

The question was does the flaps come up before the gear? Yes they do in the dash on a go around.

However if your stalling, screw the gear and flaps. Airspeed is what you want. The airplane doesn't give a sh$t if the gear and flaps are out, it only knows it needs a certain Airspeed to fly. I think the FO was just trying to do somthing, but I think in recovery if she retracted the flaps it coulda made the problem worse. Once the flaps are retracted that stall speed is now even more increased.

Sorry if I anwered the question the wrong way the first time.
Click to expand...

Airspeed is not what you want in a stall. You want a lower angle of attack, so push the stick forward. Unfortunately the ground sometimes gets in the way of doing that.
 
TOOL CRIB said:
Airspeed is not what you want in a stall. You want a lower angle of attack, so push the stick forward. Unfortunately the ground sometimes gets in the way of doing that.
Click to expand...

Duh! By lowering the pitch aren't you increasing Airspeed? Yes Airspeed is what you want! If that means lowering the nose you do it. Sorry I didn't make it simplier for you.
 
Hopefully two pilots discussing their lack of experience before stalling a perfectly good airplane and killing a bunch of people will prompt a good hard look at this industry.
 
Where did you go to school to say Airspeed isn't what you want during a stall? Please don't tell me your another Colgan Pilot?
 
JSky26 said:


From him talking about flying in Florida to this quote....it looks like the Capt. was a former Gulfstream dude. This isn't going to be pretty.....​
Click to expand...


40 something Marvin gets tired of his cubicle and drops $30K for 250 hrs as a paid FO before hiring on at Colgan with 625 hrs. Why hasnt this come out in the media yet? The public should know about these shady PFT practices out there. It needs to stop for so many reasons.
 

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