CO at DEN

[densoo]

Where did you hear that in the event of a merger that all of the UAL furloughees are going to slide in right on top of the CAL furloughees? That won't happen - get better rumors next time

If you are or have been at the bottom of the list at CAL I think there is a great deal of anxiety as to what the pilot group is capable of doing (or not doing). The history is pretty much one-sided and not good. If every pilot stopped open time pickup and stopped waiving vacation credit on the current bid, they'd have to recall all 147 pilots immediately.

Many individuals in the MEC and LECs are solid and full of good intent. But the union isn't the leadership, it's all the pilots. And when not a single pilot would stand up at a recent LEC meeting to support a "no-open time pickup if there are furloughs" on the next contract--not now, but some distant time in the future--one has to wonder if the pilots are going to take care of their own.

The leadership seems to be in place to lead. Whether the pilots will follow is another story. Looking at how quickly open time disappears, non-fly credit is waived, contractual duty day is waived, and how many other gaps the company creates are filled so enthusiastically by pilots who are the worst treated in the industry, one certainly can't blame the furloughed folks from wondering how they're going to be treated in a merger.

p.s. At this link please submit your comments now to support the NPRM to not have to wear the O2 mask: http://www.regulations.gov/search/Regs/home.html#submitComment?R=0900006480a41a09

 

[contrail67]

I hope you are right about that. I tend to believe the same thing, but I think it is going to depend on the company getting the contract change that allows the JV. I hope they are willing to put a nice package on the table because I don't see them getting it any other way. I don't think threatening a merger is going to scare enough people that they will get a blank check from the union. I honestly believe that the company doesn't see the need to merge, but that hangs on the JV moving forward. It is going to be really interesting.

I can say this, as a furloughed CAL guy, I don't want to see 1400 UAL guys get put in front of me. I feel sorry for their misfortune, but it is absolutely ridiculous to say that because I am furloughed that I don't have any career expectations. That is total BS. Even if the economy continues its slow progression towards recovery, everyone knows there is no possible way that the company can keep us off property into 2011. There will be another round of retirements in Nov and the new planes coming (and yes, they will be delivered barring a big double dip in the economy) will require us back plus hiring. So, there are some integrations that are less fair than others, but putting 1400 UAL guys who have no expectation whatsoever of returning to United in the next few years in front of me would be totally &&&&ed up.

Any thoughts on this?

The real number that will return is still out...some are over 60, other careers..ect. I would bet that of the 1400...actually 1160...about 1/2 are planning to come back.

 

[cactusboy53]

Using basic Flight Info logic, we can assume by this announcement that UA and CO will merge by then end of the week.

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/Continental-Airlines-to-Move-prnews-3387689653.html?x=0&.v=1

Lots of folks moving at DEN. C concourse got new moving walkways, and color change in carpet (really pretty reds & oranges...kind of like ....uh....a SW paint scheme??). US Airways moving to B in March, April or Merge. American moving from C concourse to A (?).

I believe the plan is to have all SW flights going out of the C concourse, every other airline (New Delta, American & US Airways). We've got to give them room to grow, don't ya know.

 

[Shrek]

If you are or have been at the bottom of the list at CAL I think there is a great deal of anxiety as to what the pilot group is capable of doing (or not doing). The history is pretty much one-sided and not good. If every pilot stopped open time pickup and stopped waiving vacation credit on the current bid, they'd have to recall all 147 pilots immediately.

Many individuals in the MEC and LECs are solid and full of good intent. But the union isn't the leadership, it's all the pilots. And when not a single pilot would stand up at a recent LEC meeting to support a "no-open time pickup if there are furloughs" on the next contract--not now, but some distant time in the future--one has to wonder if the pilots are going to take care of their own.

The leadership seems to be in place to lead. Whether the pilots will follow is another story. Looking at how quickly open time disappears, non-fly credit is waived, contractual duty day is waived, and how many other gaps the company creates are filled so enthusiastically by pilots who are the worst treated in the industry, one certainly can't blame the furloughed folks from wondering how they're going to be treated in a merger.

p.s. At this link please submit your comments now to support the NPRM to not have to wear the O2 mask: http://www.regulations.gov/search/Regs/home.html#submitComment?R=0900006480a41a09

I agree with your points about CAL - it seems like there are poeple trying to get it right but a pilot group needs unity - without it - well you know.

The previous post seemed like UAL pilots advocated such a windfall in a merger attempt. If we do this - let's get it right for all our careers.

 

[Saluki Dawg]

That's pretty much what's going on. WN needs the gates and the City of Denver is trying to accomodate us without having to build an extension on to the end of C Concourse. The plan as I understand it is to have exclusive use of C Concourse by the end of the year. DL's Gate Lease expires at the end of the year, and we've been told that the Airport Authority is going to require them to move over to A Concourse. I think DL is fighting this move, but apparently the contract that they signed with the Airport Authority only requires them to provide DL with a minimum number of gates, but it doesn't specify where those gates have to be located. So basically WN should have all 22 gates on C Concourse by year's end.

 

[Yuppyguppy]

Hey...UAL and CAL pilots wil have to get along if there is going to be a merger. There is some validity to 10 year UAL furloughees having some say in an integrated list and also those at the bottom of the CAL active list. Nothing is set in stone yet. Stop casting stones and let's try to be fair it it happens. If you've got at least 20+ years left to fly at the new merged company than it will be a good thing...my 2 cents.

 

[eaglesview]

I agree with your points about CAL - it seems like there are poeple trying to get it right but a pilot group needs unity - without it - well you know.

The previous post seemed like UAL pilots advocated such a windfall in a merger attempt. If we do this - let's get it right for all our careers.

Let's just assume that posts here on FI in no way what so ever speak for the United pilot group as a whole. We know what is at stake here just like the CO pilots know.

 

[skywdriver]

Hey...UAL and CAL pilots wil have to get along if there is going to be a merger. There is some validity to 10 year UAL furloughees having some say in an integrated list and also those at the bottom of the CAL active list. Nothing is set in stone yet. Stop casting stones and let's try to be fair it it happens. If you've got at least 20+ years left to fly at the new merged company than it will be a good thing...my 2 cents.

Ok, with that in mind, if there is a merger, there has to be a joint contract obviously. WE currently don't allow jet flying with greater than 50 seats at CAL, what a great opportunity for you United folks to get the scope back that you were robbed of in bankruptcy court. Get rid of all the 70 seat jet flying that is currently under the United Express name, and put a 70-90 seat payscale under the merged company, and all of the sudden all furloughed pilots are back, maybe even some hiring.

Also, I saw some calculations that were done that estimated how much we would have to hire at CAL if we were operating under other legacy carriers' contract rules and it was huge - I want to say the United one was 700-800. All interesting things to think about.

Hope it all works out for all of us.

 

[Tejas-Jet]

You are right about that....all carriers at DEN signed a unique agreement in that the Aiport Authority can tell them to move to another concourse/gates to accomodate another carrier....as long as they are allowed the same number of gates, it's not a big deal.

Is it just me or did anybody else notice that in PHL, Delta also moved our of E...so SWA could have more gates ?

 

[motch]

Many individuals in the MEC and LECs are solid and full of good intent. But the union isn't the leadership, it's all the pilots. And when not a single pilot would stand up at a recent LEC meeting to support a "no-open time pickup if there are furloughs" on the next contract--not now, but some distant time in the future--one has to wonder if the pilots are going to take care of their own.http://www.regulations.gov/search/Regs/home.html#submitComment?R=0900006480a41a09

Densoo..
I was the pilot who seconded the original resolution and it was clear to me that is was being presented to make sure we put protections in the next contract to prevent what you're saying.

Should these things have been put in the Furlough LOA 18 months ago. YES
Should they already be in the C08 Proposal.
Yes

But they are not and therefore we need to make sure they are written in blood for the next contract.
I did not like the answer about the 'No Furlough' clause being the reason that they were not included in C08 proposal.

The reality is, there will always be that @ 5% of a pilot group that doesn't care and is only out for themselves. At CAL... that means about 240 pilots.
Unfortunately, those are the pilots that we must also protect ourselves from.

My question would be this-
What Pilot Group's CBA contains language that prevents;
Vacation sell back, Junior Manning and Rolling Days Off,
While pilots are on Furlough.

Is it legal and if so.. we don't we AND EVERY ALPA CARRIER not have that exact language in our contracts!

motch