CNBC reports US Air / United in merger talks

[captfred]

You bet. You guys couldn't evade BINDING arbitration. Now you're saying not only will you successfully ignore an arbitrators ruling, you will ignore the Permanent Injunction and DOH will finally prevail...This is what you believe???

AWA is gone. So is AAA. It happened years ago. You guys wanted the single carrier status to steal what you couldn't get through normal, civilized channels. Well, you got your status. SINGLE CARRIER. USAPA, in no way, has the requirement to negotiate WITH ITSELF. There is no East, There is no West. Only the Single Carrier Status with the Common Collective Bargaining Agent known as USAPA.

The noose is as tight as it's going to get on DOH. Seham of course is already trying to make the AFOC believe that they're going to finally get that second bite at the apple. It's all a LIE but Good Luck anyway.

You are 100 percent correct.

 

[Yuppyguppy]

USAPA will be gone when UAL buys USAIR...im hearing reports of breaking up LCC anyone else hear them?

 

[eaglesview]

USAPA will be gone when UAL buys USAIR...im hearing reports of breaking up LCC anyone else hear them?

You are correct I think USAPA will be gone. I would still prefer to go in house rather than have ALPA.

There is a rumor going around where we, UAL, only take the East coast. I personally would be happier with that as they have PHL, CLT, Europe, and the Carribean where the West has PHX. Lot's of folks are going to jump in and say things like "good luck with those East guys" and "you can have those greedy bastards" ect. Personally I look at their DOB and really don't have many worries about it. Right around December 2012 they will be retiring at an approximate pace of 1/day.

 

[TWA Dude]

Considering that US was days away from Chapter 7, I find it hard to believe that the east guys continue to pound their chest's when in fact it was AWA who swooped in and SAVED THEIR JOBS!

While it's true that AWA was the acquiring carrier it's not helpful to say AWA saved their jobs. It was a corporate transaction aimed at lining the pockets of investors. We pilots had nothing to do with it and deserve neither blame nor credit for it.

Don't forget AWA was in just as bad a shape! Even Parker said they would have been out of buisness if they wouldn't have mergered with Airways.

There is no basis of fact in your statement. In mid 2005 AWA was a solvent carrier with not even a rumor of impending Chapter 11. US Airways was, well, we all know what shape they were in. What Parker said (Zanzibar) was that if conditions deteriorated a trip to Chapter 11 for AWA was likely in the future. Well, duh, that's what almost all carriers were dealing with. To equate the two companies financially is self-serving rubbish.

 

[TWA Dude]

TWA, If you are indeed an airline refugee (ex TWA) like most of us are I understand your frustration over a system that uses longevity.

I was hired at TWA in April 1999 and furloughed October 2002. My frustration lies more in pilot groups who seek to take advantage of others, ie, the USAirways Easties.

In my opinion your group took it in the shorts when you were bought by AA.

Yes, but do you fully understand why? Though I certainly disagree with the APA-imposed integration methodology I have to concede it's possible an arbitrator could've ruled similarly. Had that integration gone to arbitration I would've accepted the result even if I didn't like it.

What irks me about you isn't your support for a particular integration method but your support for a pilot group that wishes to do exactly what the APA did to TWA. You can express your opinion of Nicolau's list all you like but that doesn't change the fact that both sides submitted to binding arbitration and one side disliking the result doesn't justify their actions.

I personnally don't feel the need to jump longevity nor am I in the mood to have folks jump over me?

Relative seniority. It means maintaining your current seat, equipment, and position. Unless the two pilot groups are demographically similar a DOH/LOS integration causes far more of the leapfrogging you lament.

Again, in my opinion, though AWA may have been a great place to work they still find themselves in a position where they are not bringing much to the table.

Whether this is a great place to work is irrelevant and what we'd bring to the table is our airplanes and our flying. What that's worth should ultimately be up to a neutral to decide.

If we do a relative seniority type of deal, AWA pilots will have gone from a small carrier to looking at widebody oceanic flying overnight,while the USAir pilots will get shoved even further down the list,

That's why there are usually fences. And the USAir pilots were already shoved down the list when close to half their pilots were furloughed.

Although you and some of your fellow AWA pilots would have no problem with this it would only bring anomosity and resent to the over all pilot group.

WHO brings the animosity?

Now as for USAP, they would have to go. It would make more sence to have UAPA, unless it's the USAir name that survives!!??

Which name survives is irrelevant and whichever union loses the representational election will be the one to go. I've been an ALPA member at three carriers, IBT, APA, and now USAPA. A union's strength comes not from its national affiliation but from within. Frankly, I think fixing ALPA from within is the best way to go. Not saying it'd be easy but I see zero advantage to any in-house unions.

 

[eaglesview]

What irks me about you isn't your support for a particular integration method but your support for a pilot group that wishes to do exactly what the APA did to TWA. You can express your opinion of Nicolau's list all you like but that doesn't change the fact that both sides submitted to binding arbitration and one side disliking the result doesn't justify their actions.Relative seniority. It means maintaining your current seat, equipment, and position. Unless the two pilot groups are demographically similar a DOH/LOS integration causes far more of the leapfrogging you lament.Whether this is a great place to work is irrelevant and what we'd bring to the table is our airplanes and our flying. What that's worth should ultimately be up to a neutral to decide.That's why there are usually fences. And the USAir pilots were already shoved down the list when close to half their pilots were furloughed.WHO brings the animosity?Which name survives is irrelevant and whichever union loses the representational election will be the one to go. I've been an ALPA member at three carriers, IBT, APA, and now USAPA. A union's strength comes not from its national affiliation but from within. Frankly, I think fixing ALPA from within is the best way to go. Not saying it'd be easy but I see zero advantage to any in-house unions.

Actually my opinion is the opposite of yours, relative seniority only works at two similar carriers. As I have said I have seen and still have a copt of the NIC award. I and my fellow pilots had nothing to do with the east weat mud slinging but could be potentially fall victim to a list that has younger pilots at the top of the list. I don't want any part of it. From the view of the "third party" the nic sucks. Any pilot coming into a merger wants the olfderpilots on top and the younger ones on the bottom.

As for WHO is bringing anomosity, does it mattter? A disfunctional pilot group is a disfunctional pilot group regardless of where it is coming from.

On a side note I am not a "fan " of the East, but I do believe a list based on longevity makes more sence. Obviously you and I will not agree on that. I have no idea what your DOH at AWA is but I do know you are senior to a lot of USAir pilots that were there long before you were at AWA, in fact before you were even at TWA.

 

[MCDU]

TWA Dude did not even have his com pilot license 1989. He would be bidding ahead of many EAST Pilots that were former Braniff and Eastern pilots that were forced in the late 80's to move on. It is an absolute disgrace when you TWA Dude want to jump ahead of pilots that only have maybe 10 -15 years left. You were still popping zits in high school when these guys were flying jets for a living. You are greedy. Like I said before. You should have gotten your TWA 1999 DOH with AMR. Respect DOH at things fall into place.

To bad the PFT generation like TWA Dude have only one thing in mind and that is what is best for me. Screw longevity, screw the fellow pilot, I want to jump ahead and upgrade. What if Skybus did merge with someone like AWA. They had fast upgrades and one year would have bought you 25 with relative position. Skybus, like AWA was a start-up with fast upgrades and many airplanes on order. And look were that fast upgrade ended up. The only thing that is certain are your years.

M

 

[flybywire]

Twa dude
could you possibly explain to me how you think it is fair that 2 guys both hired June of 1986 one at us airways one at america west.
On the Nic award the west guy is 1500 numbers senior to the east guy. 1500 numbers. What is wrong with DOH with fences and seat protection.

 

[Giggity]

Twa dude
could you possibly explain to me how you think it is fair that 2 guys both hired June of 1986 one at us airways one at america west.
On the Nic award the west guy is 1500 numbers senior to the east guy. 1500 numbers. What is wrong with DOH with fences and seat protection.

The answer is this: There isn't one damned thing that is "fair" about this profession. Who gets hired and where, who's company goes T/U, who gets bought, who gets furloughed, who's executives dump your retirement. This profession is one giant SUCK and pilots, as a group are greedy and stupid (and I know I am in that group).

 

[coogebeachhotel]

it is a sh^t sandwich

 

[MCDU]

The answer is this: There isn't one damned thing that is "fair" about this profession. Who gets hired and where, who's company goes T/U, who gets bought, who gets furloughed, who's executives dump your retirement. This profession is one giant SUCK and pilots, as a group are greedy and stupid (and I know I am in that group).

I like that post. That is why we are our own worst enemy. Well said.

M

 

[TWA Dude]

Actually my opinion is the opposite of yours, relative seniority only works at two similar carriers.

Define what you mean by "works".

I and my fellow pilots had nothing to do with the east weat mud slinging but could be potentially fall victim to a list that has younger pilots at the top of the list.

What does a pilot's age have to do with anything? I've flown with plenty of captains younger than me.

From the view of the "third party" the nic sucks.

Your opinion, like mine, is irrelevant.

Any pilot coming into a merger wants the olfderpilots on top and the younger ones on the bottom.

Who cares what a pilot "wants"? We all deserve to be A380 captains but that ain't gonna happen. That's why it goes to a neutral to decide.

As for WHO is bringing anomosity, does it mattter? A disfunctional pilot group is a disfunctional pilot group regardless of where it is coming from.

Of course it matters. Making everybody equally unhappy is not the criterion by which judges and arbitrators operate.

I have no idea what your DOH at AWA is but I do know you are senior to a lot of USAir pilots that were there long before you were at AWA, in fact before you were even at TWA.

So? If I'd been hired by Air Tran the same month I was hired by AWA I'd be a captain instead of barely holding on to my job. Sucks to be me but that's how it goes.

 

[Tejas-Jet]

I think Date of Hire is the best way to go.

 

[TWA Dude]

Twa dude
could you possibly explain to me how you think it is fair that 2 guys both hired June of 1986 one at us airways one at america west.
On the Nic award the west guy is 1500 numbers senior to the east guy. 1500 numbers.

Yes, I'm happy to explain. ALPA Merger Policy:

a. Preserve jobs.
b. Avoid windfalls to either group at the expense of the other.
c. Maintain or improve pre-merger pay and standard of living.
d. Maintain or improve pre-merger pilot status.
e. Minimize detrimental changes to career expectations.

What is wrong with DOH with fences and seat protection.

What's wrong is that in the case of AWA/USair a DOH integration puts a pilot who was on furlough with no hope of recall at the time of the merger senior to 2/3 of the AWA list. And fences don't protect from furlough. For a more complete explanation please read the Nicolau Award.

 

[SuperFLUF]

The answer is this: There isn't one damned thing that is "fair" about this profession. Who gets hired and where, who's company goes T/U, who gets bought, who gets furloughed, who's executives dump your retirement. This profession is one giant SUCK and pilots, as a group are greedy and stupid (and I know I am in that group).

The truth. AND it applies to this world we live in as well.

Life isn't fair, this world is one giant suck and people are greedy and stupid.

 

[beagle pilot]

Not part of the LCC soap opera or at UAL, just an impartial observer. If this merger happens, welcome back to ALPA, and get use to the Nicolau, because its the list that would be used in constructing an integrated seniority list with the UAL pilots.

LOL. Agreed about back to ALPA. BTW, I think, merger or not, it's only a matter of time before USAPA implodes and collapses in a heap of stinking, burning rubble resulting in a mass vote to return to ALPA.

Re Nicolau; his health is deteriorating. We had a scare just a few weeks ago that he'd collapsed and was in intensive care midway through a ruling between Eagle, APA and AMR. He pulled through and issued the ruling, but I fear his years are numbered in single digits.

 

[beagle pilot]

I think Date of Hire is the best way to go.

Normally, I'd agree with you, but when the seniority in question is so different that it puts almost one entire group on top of the other, then another method must be found out of fairness. Add that problem is that the senior group is actually the pilots of the acquired and failing airline, not the acquiring airline/pilot group.

What's wrong is that in the case of AWA/USair a DOH integration puts a pilot who was on furlough with no hope of recall at the time of the merger senior to 2/3 of the AWA list. And fences don't protect from furlough. For a more complete explanation please read the Nicolau Award.

Agreed 100%.

 

[Metro752]

What are you guys going to do about those Aer Lingus A330s at IAD?

 

[Yuppyguppy]

This is such a goat rope...I remember back in 2000 USAIR F100 guys were telling me in my 737-200 that they couldnt wait to get their hands on the 747-400s. Now we got Aer Lingus, Tilton, East vs West, RJ cancer, merger or buyout and no contract. Time to get out my popcorn this is gonna be a long horror movie.

 

[another cfii]

This is such a goat rope...I remember back in 2000 USAIR F100 guys were telling me in my 737-200 that they couldnt wait to get their hands on the 747-400s. Now we got Aer Lingus, Tilton, East vs West, RJ cancer, merger or buyout and no contract. Time to get out my popcorn this is gonna be a long horror movie.

More like a 2 hour colonscopy exam... Just think close your eyes and think of a happy place.