CMR President's Message - Paycuts anyone?

[surplus1]

Wow, that's really good, much better than I expected. Thanks a lot for the education. Now I know for sure that if bad things ever happen to Delta you can always get an anchor position at Fox News. Even Hannity can't spin like that.

Surplus1, yes my imagination is quite vivid. Did you know that Surplus is the term used at UAL for RIF's?

No, I didn't know that. To me RIF was just an old Air Force term. See, you learn something every day.

Anyway, I imagine CMR as a small CVG based commuter w/ a few Bandirantes and Metroliners connecting CVG-CMH-CLE-DAY-CVG. This imaginary company is owned by a fake dude named Dave Mueller. This fat spoiled drunk-a$$ inherited the company from his hard working father. Luckly, an airline named Delta decided to build CVG into a major hub. This entailed a rather large construction project. First, build a new terminal. Second, drill an underground train. Third, build a B concourse w/ international customs to support the new PanAm acquisition. Fourth, succeed ORD operations to AMR/UAL and move to CVG. "OH NO OHARE!!! Fly CVG!"....remember...? Lastly, turn a podunk commuter called Comair into a feeder to support this fake vision. Given the fact that Gulf War 1 and PanAm has put the company near bankruptcy, the "Delta Family" must fund these projects via "Leadership 7.5."

Thanks again. I did know that CMR was a small CVG based commuter w/ (you forgot the Navajos) Bandierantes and Metros and I did know who started it. I did know that Delta built a tunnel and Concourse B, but I didn't know that Delta built the whole cotton picking terminal. That's marvelous. I also didn't know that all of that was built with Delta money. I was under the illusion that the local government had some involvement and some money in the deal. Now that I've learned you built it all with Delta money, that's impressive. The people of Kentucky and Ohio are really indebted to you all. I was told that the commuter signed a code share agreement with Delta in 1984, which I thought was before you built all that stuff and I also thought that the Gulf 1 war was in 1991 and then I thought your "Leadership 7.5" was a Ron Allen deal that came somewhere around '95, but I guess that's all a mistake on my part.

As I continue in my REM state, I now envison that CMR needs to show a little sign of professionalism. Instead of bussing passengers out to a noisy and windy ramp, DAL should connect these people into a nice terminal. For argument sake, let's just call it Concourse C. This building will be wired w/ the Deltamatic reservation system. In since CVG doesn't offer the O/D traffic required of a true hub like we surrenderd in ORD, perhaps a longer range commuter jet that some Canadian company is building could work. Let's float some more bonds, extend 18R, build Concourse C and fund CMR some FPDs (fee per departure) money to help finance these RJs. Our pilots will sign on because RJs will "feed the hub" and grow mainline. Now we can draw feed from ORD and really expand. Oh yeah, I'm in dream world again.

Gee, Delta built the 18R extension too? Where did I ever get the idea that runways were built with a combination of city, state and mostly federal funds? Then I also thought that it was Comair that floated the bonds to build Concourse C, but I guess they lied about that too. Then I remember those monies paid to Delta for use of the Deltamatic system that CMR kept putting in its annual reports, but now with your information I realize that was all fake. I also thought that Comair's contract with Delta was a revenue sharing agreement and not a "FPD" until quite after Delta bought CMR in 2000, but I guess I screwed up there too. Finally, I thought CMR decided to buy jets over Delta's objections and paid for them with its own money and financing, but now that you've set me straight the whole thing is clear to me. Thanks a lot man, I think it was wonderful of Delta's BOD to allow Ron Allen to give Comair all that money for nothing. I know you didn't mention it, but are you sure that DAL didn't borrow the money from DALPA? Anyway, I really want to thank you for the generosity and especially for buying Comair for nearly 2 billion dollars after first giving us all that cool stuff. You guys are just all heart man. We owe you so much (and you must have forgotten half the stuff you gave us) that's why nearly all 4500 of us Comair people lined up to kiss your butts on the day you decided to pay our shareholders again for all that stuff you had already given us for nothing. You really brought tears to my eyes man.

Lastly, as far as my flooded state of mind goes the 20 billion doesn't just come from CMR. It comes from many things. One of the biggest is buying a fleet of the highest CASM aircraft in the industry....CMR and ASA. Overpaying for PanAm w/o LHR access is another. Two paint jobs, new F/A uniforms, cheap wings and Cracker Jack hat badges don't help. Now DAL is saddled w/ huge debt, high CASM RJ's, no LHR, tiny Orient exposure, and weak hubs like CVG and SLC. Hard to believe DAL even had an operation in LAX. Better give that to UAL/AMR too. Back on topic, these "super efficient RJ's" can't even compete in DFW....huge O/D and connections. As you say, I may have a vivid imagination but if you're at CMR/ASA my crazy mind says get ready for pay/beny cuts or maybe even spun-off. Whoa, I'm waking up and need a beer.

Now I feel let down. I was sure you'd say that CMR was responsible for the whole 20 billion. Anyway I do want to thank you for takeing all those expensive jets off of Comair's hands and paying for them. We were really on the brink of bankruptcy and if Delta hadn't saved the day by buying us we'd all be on the street. Thanks again.

Sorry you paid too much for PanAm (you did), and I'm sorry you couldn't decide which paint job you wanted and had to try so many times, and those F/A uniforms are almost as tacky as the double-breasted suits you guys wear. I also agree that the new "brass" comes from a Cracker Jacks box and wish you hadn't forced us to wear a version of the same junk.

I'm sorry to that you're bitter about your management's repeated failures and maybe you'll get dalpa to take over the company and run it right 'cause those executives obviously don't have a clue. Say, do you really think you could get that mind of yours to convince them to spin us off?

BTW, we're getting ready for the pay cuts and my one hope is that they won't be as large as yours. It will be nice to see you driving chevys and shopping with us at WalMart though; we've missed you for too long.

One last thing. When you wake better have a couple shots of good whiskey or maybe a nice glass of champagne while you can still afford it. That beer stuff is for us regional pukes, but it is coming you're way.

Thanks again for all the right information. Now that you all have owned us for awhile we really should start adopting to the mythology. Keep the lines to Miss Cleo open.

 

[bvt1151]

Perhaps you didn't read my post thoroughly either and I am certain that you are misinterpreting my "reaction". I did not suggest that we should fall on our swords and be stupid. I agree that the situation is serious and I also agree that we need to be creative. However, I don't think there is any creativity in simply attempting to "match CHQ". If we do that, they will undercut us again and there are others that already undercut them.

Careful... I've never suggested matching CHQ. In fact that would be a very bad scenario.

You carefully avoided my question. Do you want our FO's to fly for minimum wage and our captains for $15 per hour? Eventually that will happen if we attempt to retain flying or gain flying by underbidding others. There is a point beyond which it is not worth going. Sooner or later we will have to decide what that point is.

Really it wasn't a careful avoidance. I honestly thought you were being rehtorical, but I have to say now that you've explained your sincerity, I'm a little insulted. Please read my last response about my take on concessions. In fact, please read every one of my posts about my take on concessions. That should answer your questions. If you still think that's carefully avoiding the question, perhaps a bold, italicized response will clear things up:

NO!

I am suggesting that simply agreeing to pay cuts is not an acceptable option.

See above response.

I'm open to any suggestion you care to make.

You quoted them in your post.

The current scenario may not be an emergency as yet but it does require serious planning before it becomes one. That will not be acheived by going into panic mode and squabbling with each other. I understand your concerns. Do not think for one minute that I am willing to ingnore the problems because I'm senior and you're junior; that is not the case. When you take that approach (which it seem you are) you risk dividing us among ourselves. That will not benefit any of us whether junior or senior.

How quickly it becomes a Jr./Sr. issue. I think you'll find, if you take a breath and a step back, that we're agreeing here.

My "suggestion" was nothing more than facetious rhetoric and I'm well aware that it can't happen. I thought I couched it in a way that you could easily understand but it seems I was wrong. For that I apologize.

Consider it even for your last question that apparently was not rhetorical.

As for ALPA, well for this type of problem it's as useless as tits on a bore hog. In fact ALPA is part of the problem, not part of the solution. Comair pilots must solve the problems of Comair pilots, there is no one else to do it for us and I know that. Our "union" is right here among ourselves, not in Washington. Hopefully, you understand that too and further, that we can't accomplish anything by working against each other.

Once again, we agree here. Don't confuse my statement of the problem with panic. In fact its far from it.

I never said it "can't happen" and I assure you I'm not lulled into any false beliefs about anything. I understand fully the levels of protection that we have as well as what we do not have. I also know that our "friends" are all Comair pilots, period.

Well said.

Hopefully you understand that last point as well. I'm nor looking at anything through rose colored lenses but I also don't believe we've run out of options.

I think you'll agree that my posts have called for using the options available to us, and not an even remote hint at us running out of options. Is it possible? Sure. Has it happened? Not yet. My issue is that after several options have been presented, they have quickly been turned down. The policy isn't "no concessions," the policy seems to be "nothing that helps management, regardless of whether or not we'd benefit."

I'm well aware that what happened three years ago is history and I'm not basing any of my thinking on our little strike. If that's what you think, you just don't understand anything I've ever written.

Actually as I got further into the post, I lost track of my initial response to you, and gradually started speaking to many Captain's who have said such things. I apologize for that, and you are correct when you say you haven't written that.

I say again, our "friends" are all Comair pilots. However, I'm not willing to blame everything on CHQ either. They may be a part of the problem but they are not THE problem and they are quite likely to have problems of their own before too long. Perhaps you'll admit that it is better to be dealing with one bankrupt airline than to be dependent on two bankrupt airlines and two nearly bankrupt airlines. I recommend that you not waste so much time worrying about CHQ and spend your good offices helping to solve our own problems here at home.

CHQ is a part of the problem. When persuading readers, the first step is to state the problem. This is what you're confusing with worrying about CHQ. You'll find suggestions to fix the problem at the bottom of my post. Notice how not one of them even mentions CHQ? This is because I am calling for Comair pilots to help Comair pilots, instead of hiding their heads in the sand. I don't wish ill-will upon the CHQ pilots, but I do wish prosperity for the Comair pilots. If one means the other, then its important to understand that decisions need to be made for the Comair pilots, regardless of the effect on the CHQ pilots.

I do not agree that our future is no longer in our hands. That speaks to a feeling of helplessness and despair. I don't give up that easily. There are solutions to our problems and working together we will find them.

You're echoing my post. Once again, you'll find the suggestions at the bottom.

We don't need to create a crisis in our thinking. What we need to do is engage in serious planning and consideration of all viable solutions, selection of alternative options available and then cross each bridge when we get to it. It is a time for planning and objectivity, but it is not a time for despair or panic.

You've apparently formed a false impression of me. I've spent quite a bit of time preaching objectivity and rational decisions. Never have I said the situation is inevitible.

I'm not snubbing any alternatives for you haven't offered any. If and when you do I will consider each one and make my own decision as to its viability.

You quoted my suggestions in your own post. I'm not interested in going into the specifics on this board for obvious reasons, but I can assure you, they are there.

That's all that I want you to do as well. I don't want any of our pilots to be furloughed and will do everything I can to prevent that, short of selling my soul.

everything short of selling your soul?.. including concessions? Yes this is rhetorical, but I want you to understand how frustrating it is to be accused of calling for concessions at every suggestion for exploring more options outside of concessions. touche?

From my perspective, this has nothing to do with pride.

We will not find adequate solutions to the problems in an atmosphere filled with emotions and it doesn't matter wheter you call those emotions pride or I call them fear.

The solution should not have anything to do with emotion, however the current problem seems to be too much pride. This cannot get in the way of whats best for Comair pilots. Don't confuse concern with fear. I'm a far-cry away from that. Its easy when you're content with the current situation to consider those who are not wracked (sp?) with fear. I am not content with the current situation.

Yes, I heard what Randy said. He did not reveal anything that I would consider unusual given that I think I understand how management operates. This isn't the first time I've dealt with Randy or his predecessors. He reminds me of a bandleader and I've already heard all the tunes he plays. Some are better than others but there's not a great deal that's original. Mostly just a remix

Has it not occurred to anyone else, that Randy and Oz may be one of our greatest allies in this situation? Past issues aside, we all would benefit from increased efficiency and growth. Don't confuse efficiency with concessions. We can't discount options that would benefit us just because they would benefit managment as well. There is some obvious strife between Oz/Randy and Fred B, and I think this is to our advantage. Randy even let some of that discontent show during the meeting. This can mean nothing but good news and opportunity for us, that is if we're willing to capitalize.

Nevertheless, don't overlook that Delta owns Comair. It is not always advantageous to replace something you already own with something that you have to buy.

While you are correct, this gives no reason for maintaining status quo. There are many pilots who are saying "Comair has always been profitable. Delta wouldn't do anything to hurt their most profitable asset." Unfortunately they are wrong. If Fred had the chance to fly the same aircraft for a penny more profit at another airline, I think he'd jump on it. Don't believe the gobbly-gook about how Fred really has a soft spot in his heart for Comair.

 

[bvt1151]

I've never been one to do any chest pounding. I wasn't doing that before 9/11 and I'm not doing it now. In my opinion we did not achieve any miracles in our contract or our strike that ever warranted chest pounding. Yes, our unity was impressive and I'm proud of that but otherwise I'm in no rush to declare victory. The one think that we really needed we did not achieve, i.e., job security. You're barking up the wrong tree when you accuse me of that.

You're right. Once again that wasn't addressed to you as much as it was to the countless others. Its my fault in not clarifying...but you have to agree its alarming how many pilots do feel that way.

I don't agree that the RJ labor market has turned on us. There has always been a surplus <--shameless plug! of pilots...
..What we DON"T do is panic. I agree completely that our union at CMR (forget ALPA they're not on our side) should be actively engaged in serious planning for the various contingencies and I hope that it is. I admit concern that it may not be doing that.

Great! We've agreed that we show the exact same concern (and not fear). You just happen to be infinitely more articulate than I and can express that in one sentence, while I stumble through a whole post.

I agree there should be serious research into all options and alternatives (excepting further pursuit of a merger that isn't going to happen, which I always thought was an ill-advised use of energy).

Amen to that.

I don't like your combined pay rate option because I see it as taking from one group of our own to give to another group of our own (not much different than allowing a junior to be furloughed to protect a senior).

There are highbrid situations where separate pay scales are used, yet pilots are rated on several variants. Kinda like how the 90-seaters were rumoured to be implemented had they arrived. Definitely worth exploring.

J4J would require a lot of guarantees from the Company to make it worth while. Without those it benefits the pilots of another airline at our expense. However, I'm not against exploring those guarantees.

It is encouraging to read this. I'm not a proponent of current J4J agreements, but that does not say there is no situation in which J4J would be beneficial to Comair. We need to find those situations and make decisions based upon their possible outcomes and the probability of success for us.

"Future growth" I have some problems with. There seems to be an inordinate expectation that we have to grow at double digit rates so that we can satisfy the ambitions of our more recent members. That's nice, but I see it as somehat unrealistic. Too much "future growth" is one of the things that has our industry in its current position...

I can understand how you got this impression, but I totally agree with you here. You're preaching to the choir.

 

[FDJ2]

Oh yes it is....

Look up Duane Woerth's comments to Aviation International News while C2K was being negotiated.

Duane is not a DAL pilot, but perhaps you could post his comments regardless. It might be interesting.

 

[FDJ2]

Not so fast.... Contract 96 scope was what I hired in under and I never had a opportunity to participate in, or ratify, with my employer the C2K language that rolled our seat limits from 120 to 50 seats (with the 57 grandfathered 70 seat aircraft).

Contract 96 specifically allowed 20 BAE 146s, not 120 seats in general. Would you feel whole if you got the right to fly those 20 BAE 146s back again?

 

[Vortilon]

Surplus,

Remember, don't post angry! You're losing the calm perspective you normally show.

BTW, don't diss the Delta pilot uniform...its one of the last connections to a better time left in this business.

 

[737 Pylt]

Duane is not a DAL pilot, but perhaps you could post his comments regardless. It might be interesting.

Yeah, but it makes for a nice rjdc spin!
737

 

[michael707767]

Contract 96 specifically allowed 20 BAE 146s, not 120 seats in general. Would you feel whole if you got the right to fly those 20 BAE 146s back again?

don't confuse him with the facts.

 

[FDJ2]

don't confuse him with the facts.

Hey if there weren't facts, what would the RJDC have to twist and distort?

 

[surfwidget1]

Surplus,

Don't let people "drag" you down. You may be getting a bit sensitive due to the current state of affairs.
In your bosses letter to the troops a few days ago, he alluded to CMR's relationship with DAL as a partnership. Would'nt you agree that it's more like a father son relationship? I'm a bit concerned for the well being of the offspring at this point, and it seems as though you may be showing some strain from the looks of some past postings.
Incidentally, Daddy indirectly did fund your growth by giving you handouts in the 90's.
Unfortunately, because of a bad upbringing, the offspring are a bit unprepared to deal with real life issues and are now about to face a few seasons of reckoning.
I really wish the the folks at CMR the best, although, I'm a betting man and thus won't be placing a single dime on the come for your sake. I feel the odds are against CMR and the dice of what goes around comes around are getting ready to crap on your parade.

 

[surplus1]

Surplus,

Remember, don't post angry! You're losing the calm perspective you normally show.

Thanks, that's good advice and I'll try to follow it. I confess to being totally human and sometimes I do let the supersilious and condesending SOB's rile my 1/4th Irish. From time to time, some people have to be told to shove it. That's all they understand.

BTW, don't diss the Delta pilot uniform...its one of the last connections to a better time left in this business.

Fair enough. I'll retract the double-breasted pun, but the tacky brass really needs to go back to its former status.

 

[N2264J]

Re: CMR President's Message...

Would'nt you agree that it's more like a father son relationship? I'm a bit concerned for the well being of the offspring at this point...Incidentally, Daddy indirectly did fund your growth by giving you handouts in the 90's. Unfortunately, because of a bad upbringing, the offspring are a bit unprepared to deal with real life issues and are now about to face a few seasons of reckoning.

Let me tell you a story, you arrogant rube.

Comair was shopping for an airline when Delta bought us and this isn't the one about Spirit or Air Tran either. The cost-plus-10% code share deal Delta was offering was unacceptable so Comair set about to go it alone and crunched the numbers on TWA, Alaska, America West and Midwest Express. They estimated it would take about 5 years to get the stock price back up to where it was - mid $30s.

At the time, Comair was poised on the threshold of becoming the 11th major airline in the country (1 billion in revenue-according to the DOT), our market capitalization was greater than Northwest and more than Alaska and America West combined, we had a bunch of money in the bank, no debt, and lending institutions were thrilled at the prospect of Comair borrowing their money.

When Delta found out Comair was shopping, they moved quickly to close the deal in a hostile take over that was sold to the shareholders as amicable. It was the largest airline buyout in history. You see, our Cincinnati product was so important to Delta, they could not live without it. To this day, Comair is Delta Air Lines best asset. So save your condescending "Daddy/offspring/bad upbringing" lectures for home. Delta pilots who dismissively talk down their long noses at us about career expectations and your implied subservient swill, really have no idea how insulting they are.

 

[surplus1]

Surplus,

Don't let people "drag" you down. You may be getting a bit sensitive due to the current state of affairs.

Fear not Surfwidget1, there is little chance of my being draged down by folks with little sense of reality. I confess that I have always been sensitive to the the insensitive and especially the ludicrous but I don't let it get to me where it hurts. The current state of affairs really has nothing to do with it.

In your bosses letter to the troops a few days ago, he alluded to CMR's relationship with DAL as a partnership. Would'nt you agree that it's more like a father son relationship? I'm a bit concerned for the well being of the offspring at this point, and it seems as though you may be showing some strain from the looks of some past postings.

My boss's reference to a "partnership" that does not exist was taken for what it is, meaningless rhetoric. We are a subsidiary, not a partner. The partnership ended in early 2000 and so did the airline known as Comair. While the name has been retained as a "flag of convenience" it is truly irrelevant. I accept that.

No, I wouldn't agree that there is a father-son relationship. We have passed from the status of bastard step-child to that of indentured servant. I didn't like it when it happened but that was four years ago and I have long since accepted the reality of what is. We lost our identity but like all slaves, love for one's master is feigned.

Being one of the servants/slaves, I share your 'concern' for our well being. However, the truth is I regard your expression of concer for us as phony. Nevertheless, slaves and servants alike are always affected adversely by the ineptitude and failures of their masters. If I demonstrate the "drag" to which you referred earlier or the "strain" you mention in this paragraph, it comes not from the remarks of your peer but from the frustrations of being "owned" by a company that can't run itself, let alone its subsidiaries.

Incidentally, Daddy indirectly did fund your growth by giving you handouts in the 90's.

Perhaps if you care to outline "daddy's" contributions or handouts as you call them, whether direct or indirect, I would comment. I can't respond to inuendo for it has no meaning.

Unfortunately, because of a bad upbringing, the offspring are a bit unprepared to deal with real life issues and are now about to face a few seasons of reckoning.

Since you enjoy reference to your paternal status, keep in mind that bad upbringings are sourced in bad parenting. Do not blame errant offspring for the transgressions of their parents. We will manage to deal with our seasons of reckoning and whatever crisis our parent's failure next produces. Remember, we are not members of the family, which means that we do not always have to wear your moccasins. I only hope that the true "sons" of the disfunctional family can survive their own dose of reality with equal aplomb. There's a lot of truth in the saying "the bigger they are the harder they fall."

I really wish the the folks at CMR the best, although, I'm a betting man and thus won't be placing a single dime on the come for your sake. I feel the odds are against CMR and the dice of what goes around comes around are getting ready to crap on your parade.

Thanks for the good wishes, even though they appear to be disengenuous I'll take them at face value. I'm not a gambler so I won't be making any bets either. It is true that a lot of rain may well fall on our parade so we'll have to don the raincoats and make the best of it.

Since you're the "father's" natural born I'll leave you with this enjoinder ..... "Drop that cross one more time and you'll be out of the parade." The winds of fortune tell me that you just may not be that 'city on the hill' that you've believed you were for so long.

Perhaps we are not birds of a feather but right now we're both sitting on the same precarious perch. When the "bough breaks" we shall both have to fly. Here's hoping you're not so heavy that you can't find a new perch that can carry your weight. As the lightweights in this flock, we can find a resting place on most any branch and we're good flyers too. After the storm we can also survive on slimmer pickings.

Crowing roosters attract hens but, they also attract farmers with sharp hatchets.

Regards

 

[FDJ2]

Let me tell you a story, you arrogant rube.

Comair was shopping for an airline when Delta bought us.......

they moved quickly to close the deal in a hostile take over that was sold to the shareholders as amicable.

Why didn't COMAIR go independent if it was a power house of an airline in its own right? Could it be that Comair was dependent on a generous DAL contract and without that mothers milk from Momma Delta Comair's future was very uncertain?

Hostile takeover??? What a joke, your co founder and your CEO referred to the acquisition as a "win-win" and a "strengthening of our partnership". Hardly "hostile".

You need to get off that RJDC revisionist history bunk, it's making you dillussional.

 

[surplus1]

Why didn't COMAIR go independent if it was a power house of an airline in its own right?

Comair didn't go independent because its Chairman was a coward who, like your chief, "took his money and ran". He and the other executives all belong to the same "club" that your executives belong to. The fact is they don't give a hoot about the "shareholders" or the employees. They feather their own nests, then walk away from the ashes to live happily ever after while the shareholders and the employees suffer the consequences of the skulduggery. The Company did have a chance to become independent but they blew it and took the pieces of eight for themselves.

Hostile takeover??? What a joke, your co founder and your CEO referred to the acquisition as a "win-win" and a "strengthening of our partnership". Hardly "hostile".[/qoute]

Apparently you have a pronounced tendency to swallow the rhetoric of corporate executives when it suits your purposes and affects others. Why don't you swallow the pronouncements of your own executives today? Probably because YOU are the one that's going to suffer the consequences of their poor decision making. You have a double standard FDJ2, and a habit of playing both sides of the coin in your personal interest -- much like the executives that are about to screw both you and your peers (and probably us, by osmosis, as well). You should be in management.

Our executives of yester-year made a bad decision that resulted in your company being able to destroy our company and its future, but in the process they made dam*ned certain that they protected themselves. Then they issued the standard "feel good" press releases that you choose to swallow.

Today your executives are on the brink of completing the destruction of your company, and in the final analysis you will help them to do it. Allen got his, Mullin got his and the executive de jeur will do the same (not to mention the others that walked away). You and the other 60,000 plus Delta employees will pay the remaining price (the shareholders have already lost their arms and legs). The "win-win" press releases and executive speeches have already begun as they prepare to take a billion dollars from you in round one.

I hope you can find solace through the knowledge that their actions are "hardly hostile". Just as they were not hostile at Eastern, PanAm, TWA, United, American or USAir or the much more simple takeover of Comair.

See ya in airline paradise.