CMR on the move

[Nindiri]

I can see how that would make sense. Get the equipment on the property, hopefully with protection to make sure it's growth and not replacement, which gives added leverage when contract negotiations do start again. Perhaps a no furlough clause too; Management would be less likely to shrink the company if it meant paying pilots to sit around.

 

[jetflyer]

Surplus1 wrote, "Don't forget, during our strike they took a $700 million dollar hit over 89 days to save $50 million over 5 years. It wasn't about the money then, it was about the power. If they are rejected out of hand, they will do it again, and this time it will be much cheaper for them. Result: we'll take it in the shorts."

Surplus I think you are 100% accurate on this. Delta management is very willing to lose money to win their battles with labor.

I think if there is a "NO" vote, there will not be the slightest chance of growth at Comair for a long, long time. There will be no growth till we vote "YES" to one of these or take a Concessionary contract as our next one.

It's all about POWER with them.

The whipsaw game will live on whether we say Yes or NO.

Jet

 

[~~~^~~~]

Surplus1:

The idea that Comair pilots are so hungry for growth that they would be willing to compromise on a contract they struck over surprises me. As you know, the sort of changes being proposed to your contract do not have that significant an effect on the Company's bottom line. Wasn't it your pilots who ran the numbers on the cuts being requested at Delta who first realized that similar cuts at ASA and Comair would only provide 1% of the 1 Billion being asked for?

I believe that goal oriented people do not give up on their goals easily. The Comair strike was Buttrell's Vietnam. Now he has the opportunity to re-write history and score a "win" that enhances his resume. He is looking beyond Delta, as many of us are.

In looking back at the history of labor bashing - where has it worked? Pan Am? Tigers? Eastern?, or Continental? Even at Delta we have yet to see if the Pilots' 1 Billion sacrifice did anything other than supplement fare cuts.

Just as you raise a house one corner at a time, it comes down one corner at a time. No one likes to be on the front lines in a labor battle, but I guarantee that your concessions will be matched, and trumped and Buttrell will be back.

Chautauqua is a growth machine. There are things I've seen about that airline that I can not publicly post. However, you can add up the facts and reach the conclusion that some sub contractors have bid the work at less than cost - betting - that the expenses of junior crew members and new airplanes will reduce the airline's overall operational expenses to the point where they will break even, or make a small profit. This is a classic ponzi scheme - without growth the operation is not sustainable.

Comair and ASA can not, and should not, compete against a ponzi scheme. Someone ( probably Delta ) is going to hit the limit and any houses made of cards, will fall.

~~~^~~~

 

[AFELLOWAVIATOR]

Portfolio Pfred has no credibility. They tried this crap with the ASA pilots last year. ASA pilots said no and guess what? They got 25 airplanes.

If they had said yes, they would of never known that they got duped.

I will vote NO on ANY proposal , period. We have a contract and I expect them to abide by it. WE ARE NOT OVER PAID!!!!

Thet already know where these aircraft are going just like last time. They are doing this for one reason. THEY CAN.

You never saw any bogus RFP sent out for 777's. Thats because the mainline contracts won't allow it. Ours will.

Our only protection is our willingness to move on. I will not live like this. I will not have this crap thrown in my face every time they want to add aircraft. Again, WE ARE NOT OVER PAID....

 

[~~~^~~~]

Surplus1 wrote, "Don't forget, during our strike they took a $700 million dollar hit over 89 days to save $50 million over 5 years. It wasn't about the money then, it was about the power. If they are rejected out of hand, they will do it again, and this time it will be much cheaper for them. Result: we'll take it in the shorts."

Surplus I think you are 100% accurate on this. Delta management is very willing to lose money to win their battles with labor.

Yep, Bingo, he has nailed it.

 

[AFELLOWAVIATOR]

Surplus,

The first year F.O.s would not get stuck at the 1st year pay rate. When they get off PROBATION, they will go to the second year pay which is I believe around $37.00 an hour.

I think you believed they would be stuck at first year pay. Going to second year pay isn't a bad deal for the junior F.O.s. If anything they have the most to benefit. They will get 2nd year pay and be off reserve very, very quickly with the hiring of approximately 400 pilots.

The bottom 200 F.O.s CURRENTLY on the Comair list will all be off reserve, for which currently there is no end, and the Junior Lineholders and commuters will benefit GREATLY by much much better lines(with 400 additional pilots below them they'll be half way up the F.O. list and atleast hope hope for their and their families future).

I respectfully think you're concern for the JUNIOR pilots is simply misguided. I think they have more to gain than anyone on the list.

Why do you think the attrition has been coming from JUNIOR F.O.s at Comair the last year??? They had lost hope for the future. They were giving up and going to CHQ!! NO LIE. I know many many F.O.s that wish they were at CHQ and not Comair. I'm not one of them.

I talked first in a group and then one on one with Fred Butrell today in one of the wings of Concourse C.

I was impressed. He is a true leader, no lie. I DO NOT believe he's some half crazed lunatic trying to rape our contract. He came across as a leader that wanted to make Comair better. He wanted suggestions. He is very very open to suggestions. He said he's been in the PILOT'S LOUNGE till 11:00 and 11:30 the last two nights getting advice and talking with pilots and flight attendants to find out our concerns.

At one point he said gooberishly with a Jim Kerry like grin something to the effect that, "I love aviation. I'm just an aviation dork that's been lucky in this business. This is my passion"

He even drove the tug to push back one of the airplanes!

This may come as a shock to people. MIKE STUART, Senior Vice President, Aircraft Operations RESIGNED TODAY. I know he's not very well liked by many pilots so I thought people might want to hear the story I was told from a line check-airmen. This may or may not be 100% true. The story as I was told from my Captain today who is a very respected Line Check-Airman at Comair is this:

Fred has talked to many, many people and asked how to improve Comair. He's been talking almost every day since he's been here to pilots, flight attendants, rampers, and all other employees. Many complained about the APUs being deferred for the maximum 10 days even in the 100 degree summers and -20 degree winters. It's RIDICULOUS and we all know it. He told Mike Stuart a while back to arrange to have the APUs working within 2 days of the deferral. Mike Stuart supposedly did NOTHING to make this happen. Fred didn't like this.
He told Mike to listen to him and wanted them to develop a relationship of trust and working together OR that Mike Stuart could RESIGN. Mike Stuart then resigned.

Thought those that hadn't heard that would be interested to hear it. He's Don Osmondson's ,the VP of Flt Ops, boss to those that haven't heard of him. Crazy.

Good luck to all at Comair no matter what happens at Comair.

Oh and what will happen at Comair if the vote comes down NO on this????
Anybody think Delta won't just to prove their point let Comair shrink as the planes reach the end of their lives. I personally think they will just to keep their WHIPSAW game alive. Should Comair become the first to suffer from the whipsaw?? I hope it doesn't end up that way. ASA, Skywest, and CHQ have all gotten growth at Comair's expense. Granted ASA pilots had absolutely no choice and I hold no grudges against you guys.
I think it's time to stop protecting the profession and protect ourselves!

Jet

Man, if you don't see whats going on then you are very blind.
Your post shows us all why Portfolio Fred is going around our MEC AND negotiating directly with the pilots. It is obvious you have taken the line hook and sinker.

Have you ask him in your private meetings about the bogus RFP last year? Have you mentioned how fishy it looked when the ASA pilots were told to take concessions, come out of section 6 negotiations and freeze pay so they would have a chance to get some new "growth" airplanes? And after they said hell no, were given 25 "growth" airplanes, only to find out later 7 ATR aircraft would retire? Now some are saying ALL ATR will be gone by Oct.

Portfolio Fred is out to feed BS to any pilot who will eat it in an attempt to put pressure on our ELECTED LEADERS.

THEY created the doom amd gloom and now Freddie boy is here to save the day?

Quit drinking the kool aid man, it does us no good when you allow Freddie boy to manipulate you..

 

[DDpaysoff]

Jet, thanks for your post. I think it brought up some excellent points.

Afellow: The whole world is not out to get you. You need to calm down and wait for the details.

I wouldn't suppose you would trust the Comair MEC to write in language to protect the Comair pilots, would you?

Arrogance over intelligence is not the way to make decisions.

 

[AFELLOWAVIATOR]

Jet, thanks for your post. I think it brought up some excellent points.

Afellow: The whole world is not out to get you. You need to calm down and wait for the details.

I wouldn't suppose you would trust the Comair MEC to write in language to protect the Comair pilots, would you?

Arrogance over intelligence is not the way to make decisions.

I don't need to settle down. I already have a contract. I don't need my MEC to do any thing accept tell Portfolio Freddie to pound sand.
I already made my decision. What am I suppose to wait for? Some document that says we are taking a pay cut? That is what it will be. There is nothing that will convince me we are over paid .

QUIT DRINKING THE KOOL AID!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[DDpaysoff]

I don't need to settle down. I already have a contract. I don't need my MEC to do any thing accept tell Portfolio Freddie to pound sand.
I already made my decision. What am I suppose to wait for? Some document that says we are taking a pay cut? That is what it will be. There is nothing that will convince me we are over paid .

QUIT DRINKING THE KOOL AID!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Heck no we are not overpaid. But, are we competitive? Will we be competitive in an environment where we can market our own product or fly on somebody elses code? Remember, Delta's scope now allows us to do that, even as a wholly owned carrier.

The only job protection for comair pilots is a strong healthy comair today and in the future. This company IS at a crossroads, and I might very well vote no to this deal, I may vote yes, but in the best interests of me, the company, and the pilot group as a whole, it is my responsibitly to sit and wait for details to make an informed decision. The only thing I have to personally gain from this deal is a little better line, I get what I want now anyway. But, if this makes the company stronger and more competitive while protecting the pilot group, I'm all for it.

 

[AFELLOWAVIATOR]

Where did you get your info about us being able to fly for others? That is not correct. It has nothing to do with scope. It has to do with mgt.

 

[Tim47SIP]

This attitude that some here have that management can NEVER be trusted could get you into trouble. MOST management can't be trusted, but professionalism needs to prevail. You need to give Fred a chance. If he screws you, then the chips have been put on the table and you know where he stands. If you go into this with an astounding NO because management just cant be trusted, then you will continue on the path you are on now. You have been offered a pay freeze, not a reduction. Why does a pay freeze need to be agreed to when Delta already knows where the aircraft are going? Easy, to acquire the aircraft, a stable economic base has to be established. Your CASM is the lowest right now, and they need to keep it that way. You start negotiations in a year, Delta needs to know what the specific costs will be over a specified period of time. That is why a freeze and extention. That freeze helps the industry because Delta is dropping their proposal for a reduction in pay. ASA said no to an extension and still got 25 aircraft. We wont know if we could have gotten all 45. Skip stated that he proposed the RFP with an increased compensation amount based on possible contract agreements. In other words, Delta needs to ensure that they do not have a dramatic increase in costs after the purchase of these aircaft. Planning!

Remember, the Delta pilots gave in December and the rest of the mainline employees got a 10% reduction this month accross the board including other decreasses in compensation. They could have easily come to us and asked for the same. It now gives ASA a little bit better leverage to negotiate up to your level since Delta is going with that level of compensation.

Should you go into this fully trusting? Absolutely NOT! Get your concerns put in writing and see if he keeps his part of the deal. If he does not, you have weeded out another Lorenzo. If he keeps his word, then you can trust him for another deal. Sometimes all it requires is an act of good will to get both sides working together.

 

[DDpaysoff]

Where did you get your info about us being able to fly for others? That is not correct. It has nothing to do with scope. It has to do with mgt.

Which mangagement?

The one we negotiate with?

or

The one that controls us?

You refuse to look at this with an open mind, therefore I will save my breath and my time.

 

[172driver]

Heck no we are not overpaid. But, are we competitive? Will we be competitive in an environment where we can market our own product or fly on somebody elses code? Remember, Delta's scope now allows us to do that, even as a wholly owned carrier.

And, are we competitive enough that DAL mgmt is willing to swallow their pride, admit that they should never have asked, and take on $600M more debt to provide us some growth? Or, would it be easier to slap us in the face, take on zero debt, allow CHQ to fly all new 170's for them, and blame it all on us?

AFellow,

You remind me of the guy I flew with who said, "I will never take concessions of any type because I've got mine already. I'm a captain and a lineholder and don't need more than that." I don't often hear that kind of attitude at CMR and it is not a wise thing to say around a junior FO. How did you get yours? Because others were looking out for you as well as themselves.

Reading the negotiated proposal and turning it down is one thing but blindly saying no to any concession is another entirely. The expectation that we will be rewarded if we say no is utterly ridiculous.

Fins,

Are you saying that ASA would decline a Year 4 CMR contract if guaranteed in writing 35 new airframes, including 170's?

We are not 'competing' with CHQ in some kind of race or 'ponzi scheme.' We are not undercutting them, nor are we coming close. Our rates, frozen at today's level, still top theirs at the end of their scale (10/07). If every pilot group who negotiates remains or gains a place at the top of the industry, we don't have a problem. Now, it's your turn. Git-r-done.

 

[Sinca3]

To all Comair guys and gals......
I don't distrust managment but I don't trust them either! That being said I think everyone at Comair needs to really think about the whole picture with what is being done to you.
When Leo left DAL and GG came in what was he there to do? Well he's doing it and has halfway succeeded. DAL pilots took a 30% pay cut, now this isn't to say that some kind of give backs weren't in order. I'm just pointing out the similarities between what has transpired at big D and what is happining at Comair.
FB has been sent over to Comair to regain "control" or the belief of having control of the employee groups. Once they are controlled then they managment types can continue to lay waste to your contracts and working conditions.
Would more a/c at Comair improve working conditions? Well yeah to an extent. Are the short term gains (2-3yrs) worth the longer term losses (5-10yrs) I know many are still aspiring to move on to bigger and better careers in the industry. Just remeber that many of those ahead of you thought the same thing. The most important thing in this industry is to think about the long term and the consequences that are incurred by the short term gains.
I honestly don't think that DAL is going to let Comair wither away! Will Comair be sold.....possibly. Can they be merged into another carrier? Sure. Would these be desireable outcomes? Maybe Maybe not but either way you will still have the spoils of your hard earned contract.
FB is a "Minie Me" of GG. He has the same job as GG. He is using the same play book as GG. The only difference is YOU ARE PROFITABLE. Let the people that run your airline run the airline. Let them find other ways to save money, that's their jobs!! Don't think that the only way for Comair to prosper is on the backs of the very people that work day in and day out for the company.
Ask yourselves these two questions:
Am I over paid for the work that I currently do?
Would any of the give backs/pay freezes that are being considered harm the future of your airline if not agreed to?
If you honestly believe yes to either of these questions then I guess all the sacrifices you have made along the way were in vain.
Good luck to ya.....

 

[DDpaysoff]

There will be 125 new 70 seat captain slots at 70 seat captain pay. So 125 people will get a raise there, and increase everybody's potential future earnings by having more 70 seat slots to slide into. It is not about Junior vs Senior. Although, I expect to hear something like that tomorrow p.m. in an email.

This whole thing is about arrogance vs intelligence, ego vs power, cooperation vs stubborness. I agree with Jetflyer, it is about control. Delta wants to give comair the jets, they just want to see some cooperation from the pilot group to give them a sense of long term stability.

It's is silly and immature to say no or yes, without being presented with all the facts, potential implications, and possible pitfalls. Then let the group vote. Anybody who jumps to conclusions or refuses to listen to a proposal in good faith is probably lucky to have their job and be allowed out in public without some sort of restraining device.