CMR -700 rumor

[InclusiveScope]

Does CMR have scope protecting the transfer of thier aircraft and flying??

If not this might be a reminder to the pro-RJDC guys how important a solid scope clause is.... The DL pilots know.....

T-Gates,
The ASA and CMR pilots have scope protecting "ASA and CMR" flying. That is all our bargaining agent says we own. Our bargaining agent says that all DCI flying belongs to Delta pilots. How would you have us "scope" something that our own bargaing agent says doesn't belong to us in the first place? The RJDC agrees that scope is important.

Inclusivescope

PS: Can you define "SOLID" scope language? I don't believe that "SOLID" scope language exists.

 

[General Lee]

Inclusivescope,


We own a PERCENTAGE of our total flying, and as of late you have gotten a larger portion of that. And, thanks to that, we are now closing DFW. An all RJ hub just doesn't work---but your RJDC guys think so. Try to understand this: BUSINESSMEN DON'T LIKE FLYING ON RJs, ESPECIALLY ON LONGER FLIGHTS. Any questions?


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[InclusiveScope]

A prominent RJDC supporter told me the other day that Dan Ford heard a rumor that CMR -700s are going to be "diverted" to ASA to cover the SLC and increased ATL flying.

Anyone heard such that can confirm or deny?

I went directly to the source of your rumor and it seems that you have your facts wrong. Dan did not say that the CMR 70 seaters would be diverted to ASA. There is information to suggest that Delta would like to combine the 70 seat fleet. That could be a stand alone MidAtlantic type operation that would be staffed by furloughed Delta pilots. This would not be ASA or CMR, much like MidAtlantic is not ALG,PDT, or PSA.

Why don't you ask the DMEC and ALPA national to disclose all the mainline bargaining positions concening the RJ70. If there is truly a good working relationship between the MECs, you should be able to get an answer to your question. If they are hiding something, you will probably have to wait and see what the answer is.

 

[InclusiveScope]

Inclusivescope,


We own a PERCENTAGE of our total flying, and as of late you have gotten a larger portion of that. And, thanks to that, we are now closing DFW. Any questions?


Bye Bye--General Lee

General,
Either you are ignorant, or you are trying to mislead - I'm not sure which. As far as ALPA is concerned, you "own" all DCI flying. You farmed out a "PERCENTAGE" in your last contract, but you are free to negotiate a new agreement that changes that percentage - either way. You could negotiate a new agreement that allows Delta pilots to fly all DCI flying. In other words, DCI flying is controlled by the Delta PWA - not the ASA and CMR PWAs.

 

[ATR-DRIVR]

Hold the phone a second there General! Are you making the statement that DFW was closed because of ASA??? Correct me if I am wrong here, but as I have asked a few time here, is it not DAL that assigns routes and airplanes who are put on those routes????? It sound like you are saying that because DAL re-arranged equipment at DFW to ASA, that we sunk the ship?? Please tell me that is not your version.

 

[General Lee]

ATRdrivr,


No, I know it is not the ASA pilots' fault---it is the person who assigned 95% of the flights as RJ flights--especially the long haul 3 or 4 hour flights to the West Coast----when any sane businessman with unlimited money from their own firm would choose a more comfortable AA MD80 with a First Class option. I am not blaming you guys---but there are some RJDC guys that would love unlimted 70 seaters to fly everywhere----and we know what that will lead to---base closures.
I know, I know---the RJDC doesn't want that---they just want the ability to undercut mainline pilots and fly 767s for RJ wages......

My rant is over---and it was NOT directed at you.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[InclusiveScope]

ATRdrivr,


No, I know it is not the ASA pilots' fault---it is the person who assigned 95% of the flights as RJ flights--especially the long haul 3 or 4 hour flights to the West Coast----when any sane businessman with unlimited money from their own firm would choose a more comfortable AA MD80 with a First Class option.

Bye Bye--General Lee

Once again General, it is not the RJ's fault. If there had been enough demand to fill the the MD80s, 737s, and 757s at decent yields, the RJs would not have replaced the narrowbodies. However, the demand wasn't there. DFW was a money loser - too much competition. These assets are being re-deployed where they can hopefully be better used. Quit blaming the RJ on everything.

 

[sweptback]

No, I know it is not the ASA pilots' fault---it is the person who assigned 95% of the flights as RJ flights--especially the long haul 3 or 4 hour flights to the West Coast----when any sane businessman with unlimited money from their own firm would choose a more comfortable AA MD80 with a First Class option.

Whoa! From what I heard, the RJ buildup was a last-ditch effort to see if the hub could be profitable. It hasn't been profitable since 2000, and there was a whole lot more mainline there then. And no 9/11 to blame either.

It sucks for me and others that have to move (or worse yet, get laid off), but it's good for Delta. No need to be #3 in a hub market just to maintain a market presence -- mainline or RJ.

 

[ifly4food]

I went directly to the source of your rumor and it seems that you have your facts wrong. Dan did not say that the CMR 70 seaters would be diverted to ASA. There is information to suggest that Delta would like to combine the 70 seat fleet. That could be a stand alone MidAtlantic type operation that would be staffed by furloughed Delta pilots. This would not be ASA or CMR, much like MidAtlantic is not ALG,PDT, or PSA.

Why don't you ask the DMEC and ALPA national to disclose all the mainline bargaining positions concening the RJ70. If there is truly a good working relationship between the MECs, you should be able to get an answer to your question. If they are hiding something, you will probably have to wait and see what the answer is.

Well, "InclusiveScope", I merely passed along what "Fins to the Left" told me the other day in the Bada Bing lounge. Why don't you go ask him instead of attacking me?

 

[bailout]

>>12 in ATL. 11 operational and 1 spare.

19 in SLC. 18 operational and 1 spare.

After that who knows.

701EV<<


Not so fast.. Dont forget about the 7 to be "based" in CVG. Which leaves 5 in ATL.
Obviously no ASA crew base in CVG, but the planes will be based there. Going to rotate crews through ATL, just like they did with the short stint on the ATRs.

 

[ATR-DRIVR]

You sure those are the 700's? I was under the impression from the "training" day that those were going to be 200's.

 

[InclusiveScope]

Well, "InclusiveScope", I merely passed along what "Fins to the Left" told me the other day in the Bada Bing lounge. Why don't you go ask him instead of attacking me?

I did ask him, and his account isn't the same as yours. He says his conversation with you regarding this issue had nothing to do with RJDC. Why do you insist on attacking RJDC while giving ALPA a free ride? I am attacking you because you persist in attacking RJDC. If you continue to attack the RJDC, I will continue to attack you. See ya on 30th.

 

[ifly4food]

I did ask him, and his account isn't the same as yours. He says his conversation with you regarding this issue had nothing to do with RJDC. Why do you insist on attacking RJDC while giving ALPA a free ride? I am attacking you because you persist in attacking RJDC. If you continue to attack the RJDC, I will continue to attack you. See ya on 30th.

That's true. It did have nothing to do with RJDC. He told me the rumor I originally posted, and nothing more.

How did I attack RJDC again? Believe me, I'm a lot more sympathetic to your cause than a lot of people you know. And giving ALPA a "free ride"? You sure jump to a lot of conclusions.

See you on the 30th. Glad to hear you'll make it this time.

 

[701EV]

12 in ATL. 11 operational and 1 spare.

19 in SLC. 18 operational and 1 spare.

After that who knows.

701EV<<


Not so fast.. Dont forget about the 7 to be "based" in CVG. Which leaves 5 in ATL.
Obviously no ASA crew base in CVG, but the planes will be based there. Going to rotate crews through ATL, just like they did with the short stint on the ATRs.

Bailout,

That came from Mark Fischer last week in the OP4 class. He also stated that we might staff some of the SLC 70's out of ATL.

It appears that nobody in the GO has a clue about whats going to happen in the next couple of months. You would have also thought they would have shared the info about the new flying out of TPA. But that makes to much sense.

701EV

 

[FDJ2]

T-Gates,
The ASA and CMR pilots have scope protecting "ASA and CMR" flying. That is all our bargaining agent says we own. Our bargaining agent says that all DCI flying belongs to Delta pilots. How would you have us "scope" something that our own bargaing agent says doesn't belong to us in the first place? The RJDC agrees that scope is important.

Inclusive, if you had a different bargaining agent would any of that been different. No. Your argument, that somehow the fact that the Delta pilots are ALPA and you are ALPA is the cause of your problems is rediculous, since regardless of who you had as your agent and who we use as ours wouldn't have made any difference.

 

[InclusiveScope]

Inclusive, if you had a different bargaining agent would any of that been different. No. Your argument, that somehow the fact that the Delta pilots are ALPA and you are ALPA is the cause of your problems is rediculous, since regardless of who you had as your agent and who we use as ours wouldn't have made any difference.

Your right, the problem would be the same if we had a different bargaining agent. The only difference is that we can and we are making a DFR issue out of it. The problem is the same at Eagle and American. The Eagle pilots however cannot claim DFR with APA as APA does not represent the Eagle pilots. In fact, my understanding is that APA did not want to represent the Eagle pilots for this very reason. Maybe ALPA should have thought this through a little better, don't you think...?????

 

[~~~^~~~]

Maybe ALPA should have thought this through a little better, don't you think.....

Well they did not and now they have to deal with the consequences of being "the" pilots' union while also trying to deny 15/32cnds of their members any rights to participate in the negotiation of their wages and working conditions.

As for the Delta pilots, they have made their bed. They had better get used to sleeping in it. My family survived three bankruptcies, believe me, in the words of the Top Gun Squadron leader - "your ego is writing checks your skills can't cash."

And General - no the RJDC crowd has never, not ever, published one word about flying mainline equipment. If I'm lying find it and post it. Otherwise you are just another of the thoughtless crowd parroting the crap created by folks like Mike Pinho.

We just want your MEC to leave us alone and allow us to bargain collectively with our employer, just like every other worker in the United States has the right to do under law. But it becomes increasingly irrelevant. Delta is on its way to assuming room temp.

~~~^~~~

 

[FDJ2]

Your right, the problem would be the same if we had a different bargaining agent.

Which leads to the "but for" argument. You need to prove that "but for" the fact that we both have ALPA on our property as a bargaining agent, you would not have suffered these alledged damages. As you have stated, it wouldn't have mattered whether or not ALPA was the bargaining agent, your problem would still be the same. This is just one more argument in ALPA's defense, besides the obvious ones, such as ALPA didn't act in a manner that is so outside the range of reasonableness as to be irrational, ALPA is given great judicial deference in the interpretation of its own by-laws, ALPA bargaining units, in accordance with both the by-laws and administrative manual, are given a great deal of autonomy in selecting their own individual negotiating goals, no damages have occurred since the CMR pilots have experience 85% growth since their acquisition and now have an industry leading regional contract, unions can place the competing interests of one group above another, etc.

 

[rgd]

DFW has only been a profitable hub in 3 of the last 12 years. Delta made the large expansion with DCI to try to save DFW in a last ditch effort. It has lost a total of over 900 million in those 12 years. Straight out of Skip's mouth last Wed. at about 10 a.m in the B.T.M.T. room in DFW. How is that the rj's fault?

 

[FDJ2]

We just want your MEC to leave us alone and allow us to bargain collectively with our employer, just like every other worker in the United States has the right to do under law.

~~~^~~~

Of course your employer is either ASA or CMR. Delta just happens to own the equity stake in your employer. A well accepted practice in corporate structures.