CMR 170's to Dash's...what happened??

[bvt1151]

How about USAir and the A350s? And what about Air Canada? They were hours away from total liquidation. And what eventually happened? Air Canada got financing after their bankruptcy. What was it for? 35 777s and 20 787s? Why did the deal go away? The old Air Canada guys wanted fences for the old CP Air pilots. You can surely get financing, even in Chap 11. Don't call me Shirley.


Bye Bye---General Lee

There is a big difference for creditors who enter an agreement after bankruptcy, as opposed to before bankruptcy. Agreements made before bk are subject to being renegotiated in bk (and not to the creditors favor). Once the agreement is made (and agreed to by the judge) after bk, there are many more built-in protections for the creditors.

Operating 25 70-seater aircraft in a multi-year fee per departure environment guarantees enough revenue to pay off the creditors (it would have to since that's a large portion of what sets the fpd fee). Other than Southwest, there'd be no safer place to lend money to...unless, that is the parent airline is near bankruptcy. Eureka!

Just another reason this bankruptcy law needs a major overhaul!

By the way, did anyone else hear that United was granted another extension on their restructuring plan? [rant]How can you expect other airlines to stay out of bankruptcy when you protect so many to operate below cost for over three years![/rant]

 

[~~~^~~~]

Another possible scenario to this is comair needs x number of 70 seat aircraft to meet LOA. Seeing Comair and ASA are wholly owned by delta what would stop them from transfering assets from one wholly owned to the other?

Nothing, it is happening already. Expect the pace to pick up as ASA approaches self help.

Amazing that these "NOT operationally integrated airlines" can transfer airplanes back and forth. I know Duane Woerth likes Continental scabs. Delta, ASA, Comair reminds me more of Continental, Eastern and Trans Texas ( Texas International ) every day. But this time, the union is not even emitting a wimper.

Justice will be when this is ended by a bankruptcy Judge.

~~~^~~~

 

[bvt1151]

Nothing, it is happening already. Expect the pace to pick up as ASA approaches self help.

Amazing that these "NOT operationally integrated airlines" can transfer airplanes back and forth. I know Duane Woerth likes Continental scabs. Delta, ASA, Comair reminds me more of Continental, Eastern and Trans Texas ( Texas International ) every day. But this time, the union is not even emitting a wimper.
~~~^~~~

Very applicable analogy.

scary.

 

[michael707767]

what do you think the odds are that the LOA survives Bk?

 

[~~~^~~~]

deleted

 

[bvt1151]

what do you think the odds are that the LOA survives Bk?

Not a chance. Best case scenario, the judge drops the snapback if jets don't arrive and freeze is extended.

Again...best case.

 

[Texx]

No the LOA does say 25 70 seat JETS. Fred told me firsthand, that the Q400s would be IN ADDITION TO, not in leu of the 25 LOA aircraft.

BTW: Anyone remember how many CRJ and EMB170s USAIR recieved financing for WHILE THEY WERE IN CHAPTER 11? You can finance anything, you just may not get the terms you want.

No, the LOA states Paragraph H.

"Guaranteed Aircraft Deliveries / Minimum Fleet Guarantee
...No Less than twenty - five (25) such aircraft shall be FAA certificated at no less than seventy (70) passenger seats."

I'm sorry. Where did it say jets?

>>Fred told me.<<

hahahahahahahahaha

You must be new to the airline game. Don't trust what someone tells you but read the fine print before you sign on the line.

 

[ILS2DH]

The LOA just says 70 passenger seats, but FB has been telling recurrent classes that the Q400s would not count. Maybe he misread it? I know the intention was for EMB-170s or CRJ-700s.

Here's another interesting point - pay would be at current 70 seat rates "for any CL-700 or EMB-170 aircraft acquired by Company". Does that mean they'll be looking for a different pay rate on a Q400?

 

[bvt1151]

Does that mean they'll be looking for a different pay rate on a Q400?

Most likely.

 

[Nindiri]

Assuming there are no other 70 seaters, what happens if you don't agree on a Q-400 payrate? Does the LOA become null and void resulting in a snapback?

 

[C425Driver]

I think it's obvious that Phreddy never had a plan for 70's at Comair. His only goal was to get concessions from the pilots. He achieved that goal with the greatest of ease and now he has 18 months of concessions from the pilots.

Hat's off to ya Phreddy!

C425Driver

 

[wrigley23]

Forgive me if I'm misinformed...and this isn't meant to start a war...

But I was just wondering, and this seemed to have fallen by the wayside as to what has come of this situation.

So, Fred asked for a pay freeze that saved an amount that probably couldn't buy A 170. Ok fine.

"I see 170's in our future" - FB

Then there was a 170 on the property for you guys to climb all over...things actually seemed to be going according to plan.

Flash forward. You have gotten some used 50's and theres talk now of yes, 70 seat aircraft, but they might just be Dash 8's?? WTF Over?!

No offense to the new Dash, nice avionics and fuel effeciency..yea yea. But, you can't seriously tell me that this was the plan here. What exactly happened??

From a neutral standpoint it smells like Bullsh!t. They gave the ComAir pilots boners(and hard nipples, ladies) for new planes, made the Canadians sh!t their pants with a superior product from the jungle on your property, and in hindsight you guys have given up potential cash and are icing blue-balls wondering if it was all worth it.

ASA got planes without taking a freeze OR consessions. Was this smoke and mirrors to get the Canadians to sell even cheaper??

Bluntly, were you guys Duped or not?

Hauy! If you were offered a jet hotdog or a prop hotdog which one would you eat? Either one is the same size, juicy, and delicious! All depends on the amount of slaw, mustard and ketsup you have on it! Hauy!

(please, no one take this seriously except Traumahawk!)

(How's life at Chau,mid,repub, or whatever?)

 

[Traumahawk]

HAAUYY!! You answrd' my question Norm. Nice job....by the way...call me wiskers. Otherwise I'll bite your ear off...you've been warned! Cubs Win, Cubs win!!


Republishuttlequa is great. I'm still in therapy for the constant flashbacks from our old job. Not as often though lately. Could be a plus. You still in the Nasty? I heard a couple rookies passed their checkrides up there this week....



Suhhyaaaa--

T-Hawk

 

[surplus1]

Once Delta declares bankruptcy, arguments about which brand of jet and Q400(s) will all be moot.

Comair and ASA will both be dragged into BK along with Delta. All contracts will become subject to renegotiation, including the Comair LOA.

That is no different from what would have happened without the LOA, except that the LOA will now have to be negotiated along with the rest, whereas without it, there would be no chance of negotiating it while in bankruptcy.

The Comair contract is today better than it was before the LOA, so we're in a better position in bankruptcy than we would have been without it.

Given that Delta is almost certain to go Chapter 11, we will all be negotiating for survival, including The General.

The only thing guaranteed is that everyone will loose something in bankruptcy. We just don't know what or how much as yet. Who will fare better is pure conjecture at this point.

Keep your chin up and keep a cool head. We were in a much more critical situation during our strike at Comair than we are today and we didn't roll over and play dead. There is no reason we should do so now. Bankruptcy won't be a bed of roses under any circumstance but the sky isn't falling, yet.

Prepare for battle; it is coming. Even though this war is not of our making, we must be willing to fight. We were once able to do so and hold our own. If those of you that have joined us since will keep the solidarity that was our greatest asset then, we can make it through the pending crisis just as we made it through that one. Unity is not only our best weapon, it may well be our only weapon. Don't lose it.

 

[bvt1151]

The Comair contract is today better than it was before the LOA, so we're in a better position in bankruptcy than we would have been without it.

That's a bold statement, however for those of us who can step back and take a rational look at things, its a very true statement.