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CMR 170's to Dash's...what happened??

T

Traumahawk

Forgive me if I'm misinformed...and this isn't meant to start a war...

But I was just wondering, and this seemed to have fallen by the wayside as to what has come of this situation.

So, Fred asked for a pay freeze that saved an amount that probably couldn't buy A 170. Ok fine.

"I see 170's in our future" - FB

Then there was a 170 on the property for you guys to climb all over...things actually seemed to be going according to plan.

Flash forward. You have gotten some used 50's and theres talk now of yes, 70 seat aircraft, but they might just be Dash 8's?? WTF Over?!

No offense to the new Dash, nice avionics and fuel effeciency..yea yea. But, you can't seriously tell me that this was the plan here. What exactly happened??

From a neutral standpoint it smells like Bullsh!t. They gave the ComAir pilots boners(and hard nipples, ladies) for new planes, made the Canadians sh!t their pants with a superior product from the jungle on your property, and in hindsight you guys have given up potential cash and are icing blue-balls wondering if it was all worth it.

ASA got planes without taking a freeze OR consessions. Was this smoke and mirrors to get the Canadians to sell even cheaper??

Bluntly, were you guys Duped or not?
 
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standaman

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We will see

Personally I think they will comply with the LOA and we will get something. I never thought it was going to be the E-170. Possibly the new 705 or regular 700 series aircract from Bombardier. I had not heard anything about Dash 8's I had heard about the Q400. We get our money back if they don't come through which again I think they will. Who knows what will happen next.
 

bvt1151

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The 70-seater talk stopped when Grinstein mentioned bankruptcy. All finaciers have since backed away from any Delta asset, and who can blame them.

The Q-400's were mentioned by Fred the first week he was here. They are not part of the 25 70-seaters. If Q-400's show up, there will still be 25 70-seat jets or the LOA will snap back next December.

Fred's "dream" is to operate Q-400's on a pro-rate basis (as opposed to fee for departure) in some lucrative markets where t-props are still profitable. It should be made absolutely clear that any Q-400's are completely independent of the LOA.
 

Capt.PoopyPants

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standaman said:
I had not heard anything about Dash 8's I had heard about the Q400. We get our money back if they don't come through which again I think they will. Who knows what will happen next.
Oh the Q400. Isn't that like umm... a big dash.
 

P-Dawg_QX

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Capt.PoopyPants said:
Oh the Q400. Isn't that like umm... a big dash.
It's not just a big Dash, it's TEH BIGGEST DASH EVAR!!!!!111!!111one!!!!
 

Capt.PoopyPants

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P-Dawg_QX said:
It's not just a big Dash, it's TEH BIGGEST DASH EVAR!!!!!111!!111one!!!!
Stop it! You're creeping me out. with your giant Dash talk.
 
T

Traumahawk

bvt1151 said:
The 70-seater talk stopped when Grinstein mentioned bankruptcy. All finaciers have since backed away from any Delta asset, and who can blame them.

The Q-400's were mentioned by Fred the first week he was here. They are not part of the 25 70-seaters. If Q-400's show up, there will still be 25 70-seat jets or the LOA will snap back next December.

It should be made absolutely clear that any Q-400's are completely independent of the LOA.
From another thread....

Whitestoneclimb said:
Actually, nowhere in the LOA does it say we'll get the CL-700/705. It just says aircraft certificated for 70 seats with no mention of the type of powerplant. There are pay rates for the CL-700 and the EMB-170 though. However, this could mean theDash 8 Q400 instead. This aircraft would meet the requirements of the LOA.
:confused:


P.S. He said Dash 8 Q400
 
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standaman

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Capt.PoopyPants said:
Oh the Q400. Isn't that like umm... a big dash.
Hey what can I say it is late and I had a brain fart. My understanding is the LOA just has to be 70 seat aircraft it does not have to be a jet.
 
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Broke in CVG

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No the LOA does say 25 70 seat JETS. Fred told me firsthand, that the Q400s would be IN ADDITION TO, not in leu of the 25 LOA aircraft.

BTW: Anyone remember how many CRJ and EMB170s USAIR recieved financing for WHILE THEY WERE IN CHAPTER 11? You can finance anything, you just may not get the terms you want.
 

General Lee

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bvt1151 said:
The 70-seater talk stopped when Grinstein mentioned bankruptcy. All finaciers have since backed away from any Delta asset, and who can blame them.

The Q-400's were mentioned by Fred the first week he was here. They are not part of the 25 70-seaters. If Q-400's show up, there will still be 25 70-seat jets or the LOA will snap back next December.

Fred's "dream" is to operate Q-400's on a pro-rate basis (as opposed to fee for departure) in some lucrative markets where t-props are still profitable. It should be made absolutely clear that any Q-400's are completely independent of the LOA.
How about USAir and the A350s? And what about Air Canada? They were hours away from total liquidation. And what eventually happened? Air Canada got financing after their bankruptcy. What was it for? 35 777s and 20 787s? Why did the deal go away? The old Air Canada guys wanted fences for the old CP Air pilots. You can surely get financing, even in Chap 11. Don't call me Shirley.


Bye Bye---General Lee
 
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standaman

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Broke in CVG said:
No the LOA does say 25 70 seat JETS. Fred told me firsthand, that the Q400s would be IN ADDITION TO, not in leu of the 25 LOA aircraft.

BTW: Anyone remember how many CRJ and EMB170s USAIR recieved financing for WHILE THEY WERE IN CHAPTER 11? You can finance anything, you just may not get the terms you want.
I don't think that is correct.
 
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kc81900

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Another possible scenario to this is comair needs x number of 70 seat aircraft to meet LOA. Seeing Comair and ASA are wholly owned by delta what would stop them from transfering assets from one wholly owned to the other?
 

bvt1151

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General Lee said:
How about USAir and the A350s? And what about Air Canada? They were hours away from total liquidation. And what eventually happened? Air Canada got financing after their bankruptcy. What was it for? 35 777s and 20 787s? Why did the deal go away? The old Air Canada guys wanted fences for the old CP Air pilots. You can surely get financing, even in Chap 11. Don't call me Shirley.


Bye Bye---General Lee
There is a big difference for creditors who enter an agreement after bankruptcy, as opposed to before bankruptcy. Agreements made before bk are subject to being renegotiated in bk (and not to the creditors favor). Once the agreement is made (and agreed to by the judge) after bk, there are many more built-in protections for the creditors.

Operating 25 70-seater aircraft in a multi-year fee per departure environment guarantees enough revenue to pay off the creditors (it would have to since that's a large portion of what sets the fpd fee). Other than Southwest, there'd be no safer place to lend money to...unless, that is the parent airline is near bankruptcy. Eureka!

Just another reason this bankruptcy law needs a major overhaul!

By the way, did anyone else hear that United was granted another extension on their restructuring plan? [rant]How can you expect other airlines to stay out of bankruptcy when you protect so many to operate below cost for over three years![/rant]
 

~~~^~~~

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kc81900 said:
Another possible scenario to this is comair needs x number of 70 seat aircraft to meet LOA. Seeing Comair and ASA are wholly owned by delta what would stop them from transfering assets from one wholly owned to the other?
Nothing, it is happening already. Expect the pace to pick up as ASA approaches self help.

Amazing that these "NOT operationally integrated airlines" can transfer airplanes back and forth. I know Duane Woerth likes Continental scabs. Delta, ASA, Comair reminds me more of Continental, Eastern and Trans Texas ( Texas International ) every day. But this time, the union is not even emitting a wimper.

Justice will be when this is ended by a bankruptcy Judge.

~~~^~~~
 
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bvt1151

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~~~^~~~ said:
Nothing, it is happening already. Expect the pace to pick up as ASA approaches self help.

Amazing that these "NOT operationally integrated airlines" can transfer airplanes back and forth. I know Duane Woerth likes Continental scabs. Delta, ASA, Comair reminds me more of Continental, Eastern and Trans Texas ( Texas International ) every day. But this time, the union is not even emitting a wimper.
~~~^~~~
Very applicable analogy.

scary.
 

~~~^~~~

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