Class Dates at Southern Air and Focus

[gear_yanker]

Wow.....You've completely missed the point!

The Chief Pilot tells all applicants that they could be used as a Captain qualified F/O. He does this to fill the classes. In actuality, very few F/Os are used as Captain prior to upgrading in seniority order. Your numbers support this.

As far as a fast upgrade, I completely agree. Most intelligent applicants see this and ask themselves why. Growth or attrition? You can't really attribute the hiring for the planes coming from C360 as growth, as these planes all had/have fully qualified crews flying them. The vast majority of these highly experienced professionals chose to move on rather than work for a scumbag outfit like Southern. The current Southern hiring is due to ATTRITION and intelligent applicants must wonder why so many people are leaving.

I've never met a pilot who took a job with the intention of quitting after he received training. When companies like Southern ask for a training bond it should set off alarm bells. Why are so many pilots quitting? The answer is easy. The crews are treated poorly (loss of days off for one thing) and they vote with their feet. When you sign away your right to vote with your feet (as is the case when you sign a $24,000 training bond) you become nothing more than an INDENTURED SERVANT!!

Merry Christmas to you. The holiday season must be very special when viewed through rose-colored glasses.

 

[mrvmo]

As a former SA guy, I believe Dakota paints a very accurate pic of what SA is all about. For those interested in SA, his posts are honest, accurate, and and contain all things one must consider before getting into SA or any other ACMI.

 

[dutch747]

There are two sides to every story and I believe that while one is drinking the koolaid, the other opinions warrant consideration.

 

[Dream2fly]

U don't like it, Don't come over.....
this type of operation is not for everyone.
Whiners, please stay away.
I am trying to enjoy what I have.

 

[ironspud]

As a former SA guy, I believe Dakota paints a very accurate pic of what SA is all about. For those interested in SA, his posts are honest, accurate, and and contain all things one must consider before getting into SA or any other ACMI.

Ditto to dat man.

 

[dakotaHC8]

Wow.....You've completely missed the point!

I did not miss the point. You have a beef with Southern because of the recent Cargo 360 merger, and you wanted to hijack the thread to continue to badmouth the place.

Was there some other point to your thread, or did you just feel a need to call me dishonest...?

The Chief Pilot tells all applicants that they could be used as a Captain qualified F/O. He does this to fill the classes.

No, he does not.

There is a range of experience in our applicant pool, and only the more capable pilots avail. at any given time get offered this.

In actuality, very few F/Os are used as Captain prior to upgrading in seniority order. Your numbers support this.

No, my numbers make you look like you really don't know what you are talking about.

What you stated as happening "very rarely" happened to around 20% of our newhire pilots, that's one out of every five.

The reality is that the company waits to see what kind of aviator you are, before finally deciding to drop someone into the left seat. Do you have a problem with that...?

Not everyone that Southern interviews is qualified to assume command of a B747 right off, so your claim that everyone is told that they might be able to do so is suspect.

As far as a fast upgrade, I completely agree. Most intelligent applicants see this and ask themselves why. Growth or attrition? You can't really attribute the hiring for the planes coming from C360 as growth, as these planes all had/have fully qualified crews flying them. The vast majority of these highly experienced professionals chose to move on rather than work for a scumbag outfit like Southern. The current Southern hiring is due to ATTRITION and intelligent applicants must wonder why so many people are leaving.

Ahhh, no (again).

We've had people leave. But it's not that great an exodus towards the door. Not counting the ones that left to recall to a major (or retired), I'd say I'm surprised how many stick around here (in comparison to other operations I have known).

The place has grown from 4 planes (when I hired on 2 yrs ago), to 12 with more on the way. I guess you could blame some of our hiring on replacing attrition, but to discount our growth, once again makes you sound like you really don't know what you are talking about.

I've never met a pilot who took a job with the intention of quitting after he received training. When companies like Southern ask for a training bond it should set off alarm bells. Why are so many pilots quitting? The answer is easy. The crews are treated poorly (loss of days off for one thing) and they vote with their feet. When you sign away your right to vote with your feet (as is the case when you sign a $24,000 training bond) you become nothing more than an INDENTURED SERVANT!!

It's not like Southern gets you drunk and tricks you into signing the contract... If you don't like the idea of signing one, then don't apply.

It's not like anyone is painting Southern Air to be a "Shangri-la" of aviation to trick you into signing up either. If your feelings get hurt easily, and you miss your Mommy if you are away from home too long, then don't apply.

Make no mistake, Southern is a tough place to work at. But understand that it is that which makes it worthwhile + quality flight experience. I have nothing to be ashamed of working for Southern Air, because our pilots overcome a myriad of unique challenges, in a variety of places... And still get the job done.

If you are the type that would rather sit + bitch, than do the job you were hired for, then for God's sake, don't apply to Southern.

It's as simple as that. Sign on the door 'sez there's a two year commitment. As long as it stays up, no sense in whining about it. (esp. if you have no plans to work there). Just walk past this door, and the many others that also have a training contract.

Awhile back, I did not want to cough up the dough to pay for my own background screening and drug test just to apply to Cargo 360... So I did not apply there.

But you did, right...?

See how "freedom of choice" works...???

Merry Christmas to you. The holiday season must be very special when viewed through rose-colored glasses.

Once again a snide remark to attack me personally.

Sorry you are so bitter about your Cargo 360 going away. I had nothing to do with that.

But hopefully over time, you (and the others that seem so disgruntled) will gain a better perspective that things turned out pretty good for you (as mergers go)...

When finding out (as a surprise) that your company will now ceases to operate (vs. half a year's notice), or you get merged into another pilot group and placed behind all of their pilots (if kept at all), or cannot cash your last paycheck (instead of having a large severance or retention package to choose from)...

Well let's just say that having been through all of those things myself, I tend to look at things differntly than you, but never through rose colored lenses. And FYI, Koolaid is for kids... I drink Gunniess, thank you.

Good luck to you, wherever you ended up. Please feel free to tell people on here about that operation (instead of an airline that you don't work for, and really know nothing about).

Blue Skies

 

[ATR-DRIVR]

8,
Does Mike Hartley have anything to do with Southern?

 

[mrvmo]

Not anymore....he retired about a year and a half ago.

 

[gear_yanker]

You have a beef with Southern because of the recent Cargo 360 merger, and you wanted to hijack the thread to continue to badmouth the place.

No, not at all. But I do have a problem when a management cheerleader comes on a public forum and tries to misrepresent the current situation at Southern.

Southern is not the place to work if you have any other options at all. You can fly the 747 somewhere else that upgrades just as fast. What's the difference? The other places DON'T REQUIRE YOU TO SIGN A TRAINING BOND!! And some of the other places even have a proper union and a contract with teeth. Southern has become an employer of last resort. Better than nothing, if you're already unemployed.

Your numbers concerning Captain qualified F/Os represent those hired prior to the training bond. The experience level of those hired since the implementation of the bond is much lower. There are just not many highly experienced guys around who are willing to soil the profession by signing a training bond to get a job at a bottom-feeder outfit like Southern.

The next time you say I don't know anything about Southern, I'll publish the full text of the training "agreement" for everyone to see. I bet that would slow the number of guys willing to travel to CT at their own expense. And I bet your "daddy" in Norwalk might not be too happy with you either.

 

[FearlessFreep]

Gentlemen;

First off; Training Bonds are all a matter of cause & effect. They are put in place to stave off a tremendous amount of financial loss by people receiving type ratings for "free" and then bolting out the door. Granted life at many ACMI's really stinks in the first year and some people might consider that it's people "voting with their feet". That might be the case in some instances, but there have been a number of people that just take advantage of the situation. I know of one person that went to SAI, then went to Atlas & last I heard was jumping over to CX with his freshly minted -400 type. Focus was telling people that they should go to SAI & Tradewinds, get typed and then with their 2 Billion in initial operating cash they would hire you away from those other "loser" companies.

There is enough information out there that people would know exactly what they are getting into when they work for an ACMI.

The differences between the myriad of ACMI operators is slight. If it is not one thing, it's another. If you don't want to sign a training agreement (World, SAI), pay for your lodging while in training (Kalitta - at least recently), pay for your own background check & urinanalysis (Cargo 360), not receive per diem while on the aircraft (Cargo 360), get charged a $100.00 a month home basing fee (World), get payed only what the line was originally worth & battle with 60 day bids & close to no chance of overtime (Focus - initially), get told by the company owner that your employment there means that you are a complete loser (Tradewinds), have your wages frozen indefinitely (Gemini), get furloughed at the drop of a hat (all ACMI but Evergreen most specifically), have management pitch two pilot groups into a figurative punch up so that they could more effectively scr*w them, (Atlas & Polar), get based in GB on your own dime (Atlas), tax your lodging (Atlas), and more other permutations and situations than you can possibly imagine then DON'T GO TO WORK FOR AN ACMI!!!

There are LOTS of majors & other operators out there that are hiring, go there!

One other thing; All these operators for the most part keep their people out on the road for the better part of close to 20 days. All applicants are told this INITIALLY at all places. When your out on the road for 14 days don't start whining about how unfair it is. You signed up for it and knew what you were getting into. Yes it's painful at times, but it's more of a pain when you all try to get some kind of Regional schedule going. I want all my days off in a row & and not broken up to some BS 2 days at home and then back out on the road!

ACMI is hard, and is not the glamorous passenger flying major airline job. There is certainly room for improvement at the ACMI's. Just quit your b*tching about the basics. There are bigger & more important issues that need to be addressed. Two right off the bat are Maintenance & Fatigue (for all people!) Now if you want to b*tch about that and come up with some suggestions then I might listen.

Another thing, I listed just some of the different situations that occurs at a bunch of these operators. Some of these were from direct experience and some was from well known & discussed events. A lot of opinions about SPECIFICS that get voiced here are from people that have had absolutely NO experience working at these different places. Keep to what you know and don't make wild ASSumptions to just what you think is going on.

Happy Holidays!

Good Luck To Us All!