CL300 Sets speed record

[NJA Capt]

why the ...would anyone consider a X?

I guess enough reasons for us to sell 70 CXs

 

[GVFlyer]

I guess enough reasons for us to sell 70 CXs

You guys have ordered 20 more CE-750's for a total of 90!

GV

 

[FraxJockey]

Personal choice

Only time will tell how well the CL300 will do in the market place. As far as I now though, there is nothing in the marketplace right now with a similar cabin and asking price (more like $17.5-18 million in current $$) that has its capabilities. The only other "competition" right now is the G200 and there is NO comparison there. It all boils down to personal choice. If you want speed spend $20 million on a CE750 if you want comfort spend $18 million on a CL30.

 

[miles otoole]

It's all about marketing. All the stuff they published is exactly true at the exact moment they did it. Nothing more, nothing less.

Smart folks see it for what it is. Those less smart don't know any better or differenty.

Exactly-who do you think makes the decision on what a/c to buy? The pilots? Heck no. I would guess most of these potential buyers are very intelligent, yet very aviation ignorant. Why do you think the charter brokers are so successful? "We can do exactly what the frax companies can do, but for 30% cheaper. Just don't mind the 400 hour part time CFI sitting in the right seat." Digging a little more into the financial details-anyone know where to find typical resale values?

 

[Hawkered]

There is a massive upgrade class in the X program just around the corner. In fact, so many, that they will have to split the training so as not to jam the simulator slots. Rumor has it that they are at least 43 X crews short!

 

[capt_zman]

We just bought 3 CL300's. Cabin is huge, cockpit is huge, avionics are incredible, mx is projected to be much lower than our Hawkers and GIV, 3100 nm range, and all at a DOC of a Hawker. Going over the numbers last night, looks like this airplane (for our purposes) is going to obsolete our GIV. Incredible.

With all things considered, there was no comparison between the CL300 and the X or G200, especially at 17mil a pop.

 

[miles otoole]

It's all about marketing. All the stuff they published is exactly true at the exact moment they did it. Nothing more, nothing less.

Smart folks see it for what it is. Those less smart don't know any better or differenty.

Marketing has nothing to do with intelligence in actuality. That's why Warren Buffet sees a need to spend millions to push the NJ name on the golf channel, horse races, et al. You think the typical prospective owner doesn't "know any better?" Buffett knows what he's doing. There aren't too many people who will say, "You know what, if it's good for Davis Love III, it's good for me." Heck, these people spend circles around the PGA, save for Tiger Woods. My marketing classes would tell me that the purpose of this "speed record" advertisement is simply to drive awareness along the lines of "Heck, that's a long way from a pretty short runway at a pretty high rate of speed. I thought the CX was the only really high performance plane out there. Maybe I need to give the 300 a looksie."

 

[LXJ31]

I do not want to be involved in another bulletin board chest bumping match, but I have a little insight on this.

I fly a 300, its a smart airplane and I really enjoy it.

The trip was conducted in conjunction with the San Diego Juvenile Diabetes Research Foundation. I believe some of our owners are involved with supporting that organization. A couple of the people on board were diabetic kids with their fathers. Also aboard were Flexjet representatives and a reporter. So I think the pax makeup was 6 adults and 2 kids, full load of bags.

The Citation X is a fine aircraft, no doubt about it.

The 300 shines in passenger (and pilot!) comfort and short-field performance but would never beat the Citation X in a footrace. After all, .83 mach is pretty good but its not .92 mach.

Whats the X fuel burn at .92 cruise? I've never flown one but always wanted to know.

 

[El Chupacabra]

There is a massive upgrade class in the X program just around the corner. In fact, so many, that they will have to split the training so as not to jam the simulator slots. Rumor has it that they are at least 43 X crews short!

Upgrade? We have nearly twice as many Captains as SICs... Maybe many newhires will go to the X.

 

[GVFlyer]

Exactly-who do you think makes the decision on what a/c to buy? The pilots? Heck no.

Well actually, yes. Chief pilots and Aviation Directors are so influential in determining the purchase of Gulfstreams that the company does much to accomodate them. There is a Customer Advisory Board, an Aviation Managers and Pilots seminar at Workshop and much customer golf.

Also, the sales executives normally approach a company through it's aviation department as opposed to going in at the Chief Financial Officer level as NetJets and others commonly do.

GV

 

[El Chupacabra]

You guys have ordered 20 more CE-750's for a total of 90!

GV

They have been ordered for a while but not many delivered in last year I think.

 

[LXJ31]

Well actually, yes. Chief pilots and Aviation Directors are so influential in determining the purchase of Gulfstreams that the company does much to accomodate them. There is a Customer Advisory Board, an Aviation Managers and Pilots seminar at Workshop and much customer golf.

Also, the sales executives normally approach a company through it's aviation department as opposed to going in at the Chief Financial Officer level as NetJets and others commonly do.

GV

I have done some demos recently and while initiating contact with an organization through its aviation department is effective, the purchasing decision is almost always the guy signing the check ie. a boardroom member. He will listen to his crew but the bottom line speaks much louder.

Sidenote: Recently did a demo where the competition (Dassault) told the customer the reason other jets have winglets is because their respective wing designs were mediocre. I thought it was funny...

 

[GVFlyer]

Going over the numbers last night, looks like this airplane (for our purposes) is going to obsolete our GIV. Incredible.

Congratulations on your purchase of three CL 300's. I have a friend who is a Bombardier salesman and he showed me the airplane when it was first certified. Nice cockpit and a roomy cabin.

The CL300 may be more appropriate for your mission, but I don't believe that it has made the G-IV obsolete.

You are comparing a 75,000 lb, M 0.88, 4120 nm, Large-Cabin jet having a 40'4" L X 6'2" H X 7'4" W cabin to a 38,650 lb, M 0.83, 3173 nm, Mid-Size Cabin airplane with a 23'7" L X 6'1" H X 7'2" W cabin.

With all things considered, there was no comparison between the CL300 and the X or G200, especially at 17mil a pop.

Yes, it's an amazing airplane at it's price. The G200 has the edge on speed and range and a slightly larger cabin, but it costs $4 million more. The Citation X is more price competitive at $19.26 million and quick (2978 nm @ M.0.85; 3098 nm @ M 0.82), but the cabin is small: 23'6" L X 5'8" H X 5'6" W.

I think Flex Jet is going to sell a lot of CL300's. If entry into service goes smoothly it will be a great "Continental" aircraft.

GV

 

[mzaharis]

At the risk of spewing crap in a topic where I know next to nothing, isn't one of the shortcomings of the CL300 the support? Bombardier got very low rankings on the Aviation International News rankings of customer support, and that seems to be consistent with comments that have been posted around here.

Has Bombardier improved their customer support?

http://www.ainonline.com/Features/productsurvey.html

Again, I don't have any experience in this area, so take my comments for what they're worth (next to nothing).

 

[LXJ31]

The G-IV and CL300 are apples and oranges in most areas. Its not fair to compare the CL-300 in terms of pax and range and ts not fair to compare the Gulfstream in terms of price.

One of the best aspects of the 300 with respect to private operators and Flexjet is the design philosophy. Most of the major system components are Line Replaceable Units (LRUs) which can be changed out in less than twenty minutes; the paperwork takes longer. With regard to the AIN article, that publication tends to shaft Bombardier when they get the chance. At any rate, last year included a large restructuring of Bombardier Corp. so I could understand if the customer service rating when down. If it isn't markedly improved this year, I'll eat my hat.

 

[Heavy Set]

Good news that Flexjet will be hiring into the 300. That airplane looks great on the ramp...

 

[El Chupacabra]

Hey doesn't the Sovereign do Mach .84 and cost about 12 million?

Just kidding. The 300 is a great looking airplane and should sell well....

 

[CE750Driver]

What's the X fuel burn at .92 cruise? I've never flown one but always wanted to know.

At max cruise, FL 410, about 900lbs a side starting and 850lbs a side at the end of the trip. Of course higher temps and higher altitudes lower those numbers. I have noticed a big drop in fuel flow when you pull it back to .88, after that the savings are much smaller. LRC varies from .79 to .82 depending on weight.

 

[flexlrpilot357]

From what I heard, the X could not carry the fuel necessary for the CRQ-BGR trip, that is why that city pair was chosen.

Maybe I'm wrong, any X pilots around?

 

[El Chupacabra]

The X should need about 10,000 #s and could take 11,400 #s with 8 pax unless TO runway length is an issue.... Not sure if it is at CRQ, but it is at HPN rw 34. Would take about 4 hrs 24 minutes with those winds @ ISA 41,000 ft.