CL30 or G200?

[CDogg]

Just curious for those who fly them, the pro's and con's of each...

Owner pondering the idea of upgrading from a Lear 55 and trying to convince him now is the time to buy!

Thanks.

 

[wtrav8r]

I helped spec out a CL300 at my previous Company, although I left before going to training. Hopefully someone has better info than me, as I'm very curious too.

This is what we liked CL300 over the G200:
TO/Landing Perf
Flat Floor throughout cabin
No Boots
ProLine 21

IMO, the G200 is better in these areas:
It has IRU's as an option, something to consider if doing extensive International
Range is greater, TEB-EGGW. I'm not sure about the return
Gulfstream Support Worldwide

 

[LJ45]

the G200 has never been a good seller and they are not making it much longer. Get a CL30, as Tony the tiger would say..."they are great!"

 

[LJ45]

Range is greater, TEB-EGGW. I'm not sure about the return
Gulfstream Support Worldwide

I would check the range is great thing, is that with one or no passengers for the G200. Some of them can even top off with the crew only onboard.

 

[Cpt Splash]

The Cl-30 is the way to go between the two. You may also want to consider The Hawker 4000. It is about the same as the CL-30 but it has two IRSs which the Cl-30 does not.

 

[jonjuan]

I would check the range is great thing, is that with one or no passengers for the G200. Some of them can even top off with the crew only onboard.

Plus over an hour up to 410 when at mtow. Those wings don't like to climb. Why they are being replaced on the G250.

 

[taxi1wire]

CL 300 small baggage door and compartment,
less range single channel autopilot. A big Lear 60 as far as international travel. Lacks serious overwater navigation and safety features.

G200
larger cabin, conference center seating option, GULFSTREAM SUPPORT-ENOUGH SAID!

 

[Balou]

I dont know first hand but other A&Ps I have talked to say that the CL-300 is a very Maintenance friendly airplane.

 

[thatpilotguy]

Our owner looked at both the CL-30 and G-200 when he was shopping a few years back. One thing that came up was the range with seats full...the G-200's range was limited with seats full, combined with the hot and high performance, as well as the out dated cockpit compared to the CL-30, the CL-30 was the choice for us. The CL-30 might have a smaller baggage door compared to the G-200...but Also consider the pass through baggage compartment in the 300, not in the G-200...I wouldn't say the cabin is bigger...maybe wider, but not nearly as comfortable as the CL-30.

It's clear that the CL-30 cut into the G-200's sales. The G-250 will be everything the 200 isn't and a bit better than the CL-30 in every catagory...same motors as the 300 but a bit more thrust, IRU's, a bit more range, new wing (no boots) ...the list goes on...it will be the plane to have if you look at the numbers.

It's true that the CL-30 is lacking for serious overseas operations...a lot of guys don't like the lack of IRU's, and such...but I can say that it does everything as advertised and does it well. Bombardier support is and always has been a problem. Mechanics like working on it (atleast ours does.) Passengers like it, the operating costs are great and the list of negatives are few. Biggest problem is getting one, although I have seen a few listed for sale since the down turn in the economy.

Feel free to PM me if you want specifics...

 

[rjcap]

Great time to buy a used 300. Plenty to choose from on the resale market. Pax are happy with it.

Great domestic plane for all the reasons stated above but it is not an international aircraft. Lack of system redundancies and range. Galley is also minimal.

 

[BoilerUP]

Why would Bombardier not offer at least a single IRU as an option, especially since it seems to be a big knock against using it on a regular basis internationally?

Hell, Gulfstream offers a single IRU as an option on the G150...

 

[thatpilotguy]

That's a question that has come up several times since the start of the program. Bombardier's answer is that it was never intended to be an international airplane...remember it was originally the "Continental" intended for East Coast to West Coast operations...it wasn't until operators started taking the aircraft overseas that the IRU issue and lack of some redundancies came up...there has been some testing of IRU's in various installations...Bombardier hasn't said if they have any immediate intention of finding a solution...but I would guess that when the G-250 hits the market it won't be long before you see it as an option at the very least.

 

[hawkerjet]

If you're primary operating area is North America, I'd go with the CL300. However if you're planning on International operations, Look at the G250 and have Gulfstream put you in a G200 while you're waiting for delivery. I believe they will buy it back from you if put in the contract/

 

[DUATS]

Great time to buy a used 300. Plenty to choose from on the resale market.

And plenty of furloughed Flexjet pilots willing to fly it. Cheap!

Baggage isn't an issue. I've had 8 sets of golf clubs and overnight bags in there, with crew bags and international kit. Bring big things in through the cabin. Passengers do love it; only issue I ever had was small trash can and not enough storage for catering when you have 8 folks on a cross country.

 

[lnm22]

I fly the CL30 so I am a bit partial. The G200 has a nice cabin and the owner will like that. From a pilot standpoint the CL30 is better, and a better performer. The new G250 will be awesome and I suggest if you are waiting a bit to look hard at that. I've been on board a Hawker 4000 and the cabin just feels small. The whole plane looks smaller, but that is nominal. Right now IS the time to buy a used 300. I know you will not be upset. Anything bigger than the Lear 55 will give the passengers more comfort, and you will enjoy flying any of them.

 

[400A]

If you are not looking only at new, a company on our airport did his same drill and ended up buying a used 604. There have been several 604's sell in the 10-12 mil class. Fuel burn is more, but far less dollars. They also compared Falcon 2000 / 50EX / 900. There is a good market on the 50EX right now in my opinion. Cessna and Hawker are getting pretty aggressive right now on new as well. Our New Hawker has been a dream. We do not stretch the aircraft however. 900XP is pretty impressive.

 

[fob727]

Iru???

 

[BoilerUP]

Iru???

Inertial Reference Unit...different name for an Inertial Navigation System.

 

[fob727]

Thanks

 

[svcta]

I fly a G-200 in a dept that has a CL30. I've not flown the Challenger but I can make things pretty simple.

From the back of the cockpit seats forward the CL is superior. From the same point all the way to the APU exhaust the Galaxy is superior. The cabin in the GALX is far and away the better of the two in terms of amenities, finish, galley, everything but the pass-through baggage. And the flat floor that the challenger guys rave about to me makes the interior look even more like a trailer. It even has a bizarre smell (ours do, at least).

All that having been said there is no mistaking that in terms of runway performance the CL is again superior. The GALX does okay until you thrown in runway contamination, then you're just about d*uched.

The GALX is a little faster, burns a little more fuel and won't shoot straight up to the 40's the way that the CL will. Gulfstream support is vastly superior to the Bombardier support as has been said.

At the end of the day, the G250 will be the best of all three if you can wait. If not, there are A LOT of G-200s on the market right now. CL30s, too, I think.

 

[PMVULB AvMgr]

Get yourself a used 200 right now at a bargain basement price, and put an order in for the 250 which will have the so called super mids beat by a mile. Saw the aircraft in Tel Aviv in late March - she's gonna be an absolute beauty!

You simply CAN NOT beat Gulfstream's support - Bombardier doesn't even come close - they still don't understand what the term "AOG" means!

 

[G100driver]

We looked at both the G200 and CL300 ... we bought a falcon 2000.

 

[LJ45]

We looked at both the G200 and CL300 ... we bought a falcon 2000.

not in the same group. The 2000 is in the next level up in cabin, range and cost.

 

[CDogg]

Thanks all for the replies.

The more we reviewed the specs, the 300 is clearly the winner over the two.... the 600lb payload with full tanks on the G200 is a bit pathetic and a bit of a deal breaker. Owner doesn't want to wait for a G250 - nor pay the price of something that new.

The question was asked about Hawaii. How would it be in a 300 going from LA area to Hawaii - possible with 6 people with a bunch of bags and scuba gear? They probably carry 5-700 pounds of bags when they travel just the 4-5 of them (again scuba gear - crap weighs a lot believe it or not). From what I read it looked like around a 1200lb payload with full fuel. 5 1/2 - 6 hour flight from VNY or LAX area, looks like it's pushing it with the 300 with a heavy load, and as mentioned, the lack of the IRS/IRU. They will also be going to London a few times a year. Done that trip too many times in a Learjet doing air ambulance... tired of stopping in Iceland and/or Goose/Gander

I started looking into the large cabin class - seen Kaiser Air is selling one of their G4's for 9.9mil. Prices sure are plumetting... the 5mil savings over a 300 pays for a lot of trips. And like mentioned so many times before - Bombardier vs Gulfstream support, no comparison. Can even get Falcon 2000 or 900 now for cheaper than a 300. It's too bad some owners are too fixated on the hourly operating cost, and burning 5000lbs that first hour just makes them shy away - even though they can more than afford it, I'm trying to convince them it's better than swimming.

 

[LJ45]

Thanks all for the replies.

The more we reviewed the specs, the 300 is clearly the winner over the two.... the 600lb payload with full tanks on the G200 is a bit pathetic and a bit of a deal breaker. Owner doesn't want to wait for a G250 - nor pay the price of something that new.

The question was asked about Hawaii. How would it be in a 300 going from LA area to Hawaii - possible with 6 people with a bunch of bags and scuba gear? They probably carry 5-700 pounds of bags when they travel just the 4-5 of them (again scuba gear - crap weighs a lot believe it or not). From what I read it looked like around a 1200lb payload with full fuel. 5 1/2 - 6 hour flight from VNY or LAX area, looks like it's pushing it with the 300 with a heavy load, and as mentioned, the lack of the IRS/IRU. They will also be going to London a few times a year. Done that trip too many times in a Learjet doing air ambulance... tired of stopping in Iceland and/or Goose/Gander

I started looking into the large cabin class - seen Kaiser Air is selling one of their G4's for 9.9mil. Prices sure are plumetting... the 5mil savings over a 300 pays for a lot of trips. And like mentioned so many times before - Bombardier vs Gulfstream support, no comparison. Can even get Falcon 2000 or 900 now for cheaper than a 300. It's too bad some owners are too fixated on the hourly operating cost, and burning 5000lbs that first hour just makes them shy away - even though they can more than afford it, I'm trying to convince them it's better than swimming.

Sounds likes something bigger than the G200 or CL300 would work better for you.

 

[svcta]

I don't think the CL has the creature comforts for a regular "long" haul. There is barely a place to pour a cup of coffee in the galley, much less organize a meal. I don't even think it has a coffee maker(ours, at least). But it does sound like a used G machine may be better suited for you, anyhow.

 

[ttflyer]

Thanks all for the replies.

The more we reviewed the specs, the 300 is clearly the winner over the two.... the 600lb payload with full tanks on the G200 is a bit pathetic and a bit of a deal breaker. Owner doesn't want to wait for a G250 - nor pay the price of something that new.

The question was asked about Hawaii. How would it be in a 300 going from LA area to Hawaii - possible with 6 people with a bunch of bags and scuba gear? They probably carry 5-700 pounds of bags when they travel just the 4-5 of them (again scuba gear - crap weighs a lot believe it or not). From what I read it looked like around a 1200lb payload with full fuel. 5 1/2 - 6 hour flight from VNY or LAX area, looks like it's pushing it with the 300 with a heavy load, and as mentioned, the lack of the IRS/IRU. They will also be going to London a few times a year. Done that trip too many times in a Learjet doing air ambulance... tired of stopping in Iceland and/or Goose/Gander

I started looking into the large cabin class - seen Kaiser Air is selling one of their G4's for 9.9mil. Prices sure are plumetting... the 5mil savings over a 300 pays for a lot of trips. And like mentioned so many times before - Bombardier vs Gulfstream support, no comparison. Can even get Falcon 2000 or 900 now for cheaper than a 300. It's too bad some owners are too fixated on the hourly operating cost, and burning 5000lbs that first hour just makes them shy away - even though they can more than afford it, I'm trying to convince them it's better than swimming.

Using our heavy(er) 300, with 2000lbs of payload we can carry 13,100# of fuel. On LAX-PHNL our fuel burn (today at .80) would be about 9,800# so - no problem. ETP loss of pressurization with an emergency decent to 12,500' has us landing in LA or HNL with about 1,200 lbs. If you wanted to suck O2 at FL250 you would do much better.

I think it would be a great airplane for Hawaii and I know they do it everyday. That being said, with an unusual headwind and that much payload, it could get tight.

Sounds like a good airplane for your mission. Of course, a G4 would be better if you think your boss can afford it. A G5 would be better still - it's all about the money...

 

[ttflyer]

I don't think the CL has the creature comforts for a regular "long" haul. There is barely a place to pour a cup of coffee in the galley, much less organize a meal. I don't even think it has a coffee maker(ours, at least). But it does sound like a used G machine may be better suited for you, anyhow.

So I can't tell - Do you like the cabin on the 300 or not?

 

[thatpilotguy]

I ran some numbers for KVNY to PHNL, 6 pax at 180lbs, 700lbs of cargo. Arincdirect is kinda cool in the fact that I put in depart with max fuel, selected departure airport and Maui for coast out and coast in airports for depress/medical/1LE return issues. Here is the data that I got...a couple of cut and paste from the flight plan. I should add that I used average winds for June, but there is still room for a higher headwind component based on my quick planning...

FLT LVL: 430 TRIP WIND FACTOR = 45 HWC
ROUTE:
KVNY CNOG8 FIM ROSIN C1177 FICKY R578 DEREC V21 LNY SAKKI4 PHNL

DIS TIME FUEL/U FUEL/R WEIGHT
FROM: KVNY ---- ----- ----- 13140 38999
TO: PHNL 2355 05:53 10447 2693 28552
EXTRA: ---- ---- 00:28 693 2693 -----
HOLDING: ---- ---- 00:00 0 2000 28552
ALTERNATE: ---- ----- ----- ----- -----
RESERVE: ---- ---- 01:21 2000 0 26552

Depress is going to be your most limiting factor...here is the data.**As stated above, you can lower the altitude to 12500', FL200 for depress is the default, which leave you almost 1.5 hours of fuel...so there is room here for adjustments as well**

DEPRESS - FL PROFILE: OXYGEN ALTITUDE FOR 400 MIN THEN FL200
LAT/LONG N26 56.0/W138 22.9 KLAX PHOG
TIME TO ETP DIVRSN PT 02.55
DIST TO ETP DIVRSN PT 01177
FUEL TO ETP DIVRSN PT 005816
FL/BURN/TIME TO ETP AP 200/05139/03.55 200/05134/03.50
TAS/ETA/DIST TO ETP AP 270/0650/001114 279/0646/001053
MAG CRS/AVG WIND COMP TO ETP 055/P006 237/M012
ISA TEMP DEV TO ETP AP P010 P011
TOTAL FUEL TO ETP AP / RMNG 10955/01985 10949/01991


From my quick planning, it looks like you would not have a problem with that flight. Having done Hawaii a bunch of times, the issues creep up when the seats are full. We have done Seattle to Hawaii, with seats full, average bags and we where close to the limits on that route.

If the G4 prices are really 9 mil...I would be all over that. As you mentioned prices are falling. I know a couple of groups looking at upgrading. It looks like the biggest road block is getting a resonable value for what they are currently operating, to be able to jump up into something larger. It's really fun/exciting to see people looking at new aircraft, gives me hope that we can get some guys/gals working again and see some turn around in the industry.

 

[rice]

not in the same group. The 2000 is in the next level up in cabin, range and cost.

True, the DA-2000 is not in the same group, IMHO a far superior aircraft to the previously mentioned. However, a 2000 EASy just sold for a hair over $17mm. That does not put it really out of class with a new CL-300 or G-200. That 3yr old 2000 EASy is far and away a better deal over the long run than either of the other two especially if you're doing international work.