CL30 or G200?

[PMVULB AvMgr]

Get yourself a used 200 right now at a bargain basement price, and put an order in for the 250 which will have the so called super mids beat by a mile. Saw the aircraft in Tel Aviv in late March - she's gonna be an absolute beauty!

You simply CAN NOT beat Gulfstream's support - Bombardier doesn't even come close - they still don't understand what the term "AOG" means!

 

[G100driver]

We looked at both the G200 and CL300 ... we bought a falcon 2000.

 

[LJ45]

We looked at both the G200 and CL300 ... we bought a falcon 2000.

not in the same group. The 2000 is in the next level up in cabin, range and cost.

 

[CDogg]

Thanks all for the replies.

The more we reviewed the specs, the 300 is clearly the winner over the two.... the 600lb payload with full tanks on the G200 is a bit pathetic and a bit of a deal breaker. Owner doesn't want to wait for a G250 - nor pay the price of something that new.

The question was asked about Hawaii. How would it be in a 300 going from LA area to Hawaii - possible with 6 people with a bunch of bags and scuba gear? They probably carry 5-700 pounds of bags when they travel just the 4-5 of them (again scuba gear - crap weighs a lot believe it or not). From what I read it looked like around a 1200lb payload with full fuel. 5 1/2 - 6 hour flight from VNY or LAX area, looks like it's pushing it with the 300 with a heavy load, and as mentioned, the lack of the IRS/IRU. They will also be going to London a few times a year. Done that trip too many times in a Learjet doing air ambulance... tired of stopping in Iceland and/or Goose/Gander

I started looking into the large cabin class - seen Kaiser Air is selling one of their G4's for 9.9mil. Prices sure are plumetting... the 5mil savings over a 300 pays for a lot of trips. And like mentioned so many times before - Bombardier vs Gulfstream support, no comparison. Can even get Falcon 2000 or 900 now for cheaper than a 300. It's too bad some owners are too fixated on the hourly operating cost, and burning 5000lbs that first hour just makes them shy away - even though they can more than afford it, I'm trying to convince them it's better than swimming.

 

[LJ45]

Thanks all for the replies.

The more we reviewed the specs, the 300 is clearly the winner over the two.... the 600lb payload with full tanks on the G200 is a bit pathetic and a bit of a deal breaker. Owner doesn't want to wait for a G250 - nor pay the price of something that new.

The question was asked about Hawaii. How would it be in a 300 going from LA area to Hawaii - possible with 6 people with a bunch of bags and scuba gear? They probably carry 5-700 pounds of bags when they travel just the 4-5 of them (again scuba gear - crap weighs a lot believe it or not). From what I read it looked like around a 1200lb payload with full fuel. 5 1/2 - 6 hour flight from VNY or LAX area, looks like it's pushing it with the 300 with a heavy load, and as mentioned, the lack of the IRS/IRU. They will also be going to London a few times a year. Done that trip too many times in a Learjet doing air ambulance... tired of stopping in Iceland and/or Goose/Gander

I started looking into the large cabin class - seen Kaiser Air is selling one of their G4's for 9.9mil. Prices sure are plumetting... the 5mil savings over a 300 pays for a lot of trips. And like mentioned so many times before - Bombardier vs Gulfstream support, no comparison. Can even get Falcon 2000 or 900 now for cheaper than a 300. It's too bad some owners are too fixated on the hourly operating cost, and burning 5000lbs that first hour just makes them shy away - even though they can more than afford it, I'm trying to convince them it's better than swimming.

Sounds likes something bigger than the G200 or CL300 would work better for you.

 

[svcta]

I don't think the CL has the creature comforts for a regular "long" haul. There is barely a place to pour a cup of coffee in the galley, much less organize a meal. I don't even think it has a coffee maker(ours, at least). But it does sound like a used G machine may be better suited for you, anyhow.

 

[ttflyer]

Thanks all for the replies.

The more we reviewed the specs, the 300 is clearly the winner over the two.... the 600lb payload with full tanks on the G200 is a bit pathetic and a bit of a deal breaker. Owner doesn't want to wait for a G250 - nor pay the price of something that new.

The question was asked about Hawaii. How would it be in a 300 going from LA area to Hawaii - possible with 6 people with a bunch of bags and scuba gear? They probably carry 5-700 pounds of bags when they travel just the 4-5 of them (again scuba gear - crap weighs a lot believe it or not). From what I read it looked like around a 1200lb payload with full fuel. 5 1/2 - 6 hour flight from VNY or LAX area, looks like it's pushing it with the 300 with a heavy load, and as mentioned, the lack of the IRS/IRU. They will also be going to London a few times a year. Done that trip too many times in a Learjet doing air ambulance... tired of stopping in Iceland and/or Goose/Gander

I started looking into the large cabin class - seen Kaiser Air is selling one of their G4's for 9.9mil. Prices sure are plumetting... the 5mil savings over a 300 pays for a lot of trips. And like mentioned so many times before - Bombardier vs Gulfstream support, no comparison. Can even get Falcon 2000 or 900 now for cheaper than a 300. It's too bad some owners are too fixated on the hourly operating cost, and burning 5000lbs that first hour just makes them shy away - even though they can more than afford it, I'm trying to convince them it's better than swimming.

Using our heavy(er) 300, with 2000lbs of payload we can carry 13,100# of fuel. On LAX-PHNL our fuel burn (today at .80) would be about 9,800# so - no problem. ETP loss of pressurization with an emergency decent to 12,500' has us landing in LA or HNL with about 1,200 lbs. If you wanted to suck O2 at FL250 you would do much better.

I think it would be a great airplane for Hawaii and I know they do it everyday. That being said, with an unusual headwind and that much payload, it could get tight.

Sounds like a good airplane for your mission. Of course, a G4 would be better if you think your boss can afford it. A G5 would be better still - it's all about the money...

 

[ttflyer]

I don't think the CL has the creature comforts for a regular "long" haul. There is barely a place to pour a cup of coffee in the galley, much less organize a meal. I don't even think it has a coffee maker(ours, at least). But it does sound like a used G machine may be better suited for you, anyhow.

So I can't tell - Do you like the cabin on the 300 or not?

 

[thatpilotguy]

I ran some numbers for KVNY to PHNL, 6 pax at 180lbs, 700lbs of cargo. Arincdirect is kinda cool in the fact that I put in depart with max fuel, selected departure airport and Maui for coast out and coast in airports for depress/medical/1LE return issues. Here is the data that I got...a couple of cut and paste from the flight plan. I should add that I used average winds for June, but there is still room for a higher headwind component based on my quick planning...

FLT LVL: 430 TRIP WIND FACTOR = 45 HWC
ROUTE:
KVNY CNOG8 FIM ROSIN C1177 FICKY R578 DEREC V21 LNY SAKKI4 PHNL

DIS TIME FUEL/U FUEL/R WEIGHT
FROM: KVNY ---- ----- ----- 13140 38999
TO: PHNL 2355 05:53 10447 2693 28552
EXTRA: ---- ---- 00:28 693 2693 -----
HOLDING: ---- ---- 00:00 0 2000 28552
ALTERNATE: ---- ----- ----- ----- -----
RESERVE: ---- ---- 01:21 2000 0 26552

Depress is going to be your most limiting factor...here is the data.**As stated above, you can lower the altitude to 12500', FL200 for depress is the default, which leave you almost 1.5 hours of fuel...so there is room here for adjustments as well**

DEPRESS - FL PROFILE: OXYGEN ALTITUDE FOR 400 MIN THEN FL200
LAT/LONG N26 56.0/W138 22.9 KLAX PHOG
TIME TO ETP DIVRSN PT 02.55
DIST TO ETP DIVRSN PT 01177
FUEL TO ETP DIVRSN PT 005816
FL/BURN/TIME TO ETP AP 200/05139/03.55 200/05134/03.50
TAS/ETA/DIST TO ETP AP 270/0650/001114 279/0646/001053
MAG CRS/AVG WIND COMP TO ETP 055/P006 237/M012
ISA TEMP DEV TO ETP AP P010 P011
TOTAL FUEL TO ETP AP / RMNG 10955/01985 10949/01991


From my quick planning, it looks like you would not have a problem with that flight. Having done Hawaii a bunch of times, the issues creep up when the seats are full. We have done Seattle to Hawaii, with seats full, average bags and we where close to the limits on that route.

If the G4 prices are really 9 mil...I would be all over that. As you mentioned prices are falling. I know a couple of groups looking at upgrading. It looks like the biggest road block is getting a resonable value for what they are currently operating, to be able to jump up into something larger. It's really fun/exciting to see people looking at new aircraft, gives me hope that we can get some guys/gals working again and see some turn around in the industry.

 

[rice]

not in the same group. The 2000 is in the next level up in cabin, range and cost.

True, the DA-2000 is not in the same group, IMHO a far superior aircraft to the previously mentioned. However, a 2000 EASy just sold for a hair over $17mm. That does not put it really out of class with a new CL-300 or G-200. That 3yr old 2000 EASy is far and away a better deal over the long run than either of the other two especially if you're doing international work.

 

[thatpilotguy]

Rice, we still need to grab a beer! and your right there have been some great deals made out there recently...brand loyalty is going to be all over this thread. Rice loves Falcons, I love the 300 and svcta loves Gulfstream...we can toss out all kinds of numbers and reasons why...I would say demo some airplanes...at the very least you can get some freebies from the vendors and allow your passengers to get a real feel for what's out there. Keep us in the loop and let us know if your owner pulls the trigger on something new!

 

[rice]

Thanks all for the replies.

The more we reviewed the specs, the 300 is clearly the winner over the two.... the 600lb payload with full tanks on the G200 is a bit pathetic and a bit of a deal breaker. Owner doesn't want to wait for a G250 - nor pay the price of something that new.

The question was asked about Hawaii. How would it be in a 300 going from LA area to Hawaii - possible with 6 people with a bunch of bags and scuba gear? They probably carry 5-700 pounds of bags when they travel just the 4-5 of them (again scuba gear - crap weighs a lot believe it or not). From what I read it looked like around a 1200lb payload with full fuel. 5 1/2 - 6 hour flight from VNY or LAX area, looks like it's pushing it with the 300 with a heavy load, and as mentioned, the lack of the IRS/IRU. They will also be going to London a few times a year. Done that trip too many times in a Learjet doing air ambulance... tired of stopping in Iceland and/or Goose/Gander

I started looking into the large cabin class - seen Kaiser Air is selling one of their G4's for 9.9mil. Prices sure are plumetting... the 5mil savings over a 300 pays for a lot of trips. And like mentioned so many times before - Bombardier vs Gulfstream support, no comparison. Can even get Falcon 2000 or 900 now for cheaper than a 300. It's too bad some owners are too fixated on the hourly operating cost, and burning 5000lbs that first hour just makes them shy away - even though they can more than afford it, I'm trying to convince them it's better than swimming.

I know where you can get a 900B in GREAT condition !!!! Not a significant mx item in nearly 3 years. Good deal too!!! We just bought a 900 EASy.

 

[rice]

Rice, we still need to grab a beer! and your right there have been some great deals made out there recently...brand loyalty is going to be all over this thread. Rice loves Falcons, I love the 300 and svcta loves Gulfstream...we can toss out all kinds of numbers and reasons why...I would say demo some airplanes...at the very least you can get some freebies from the vendors and allow your passengers to get a real feel for what's out there. Keep us in the loop and let us know if your owner pulls the trigger on something new!

T,
Yeah we do!!!!! I'm still bumming over the Nug's loss. Beer will have to wait though, I'm gone 'til the end of the month, HIO today, TEB on Sunday and heading over to Europe on Tues. night. Back home on the 29th, hopefully with a new FSI date. :beer:

 

[thatpilotguy]

900 EASy...sweet! Congrats, Rice...can't wait to see it. That cockpit looks awesome. Hope you get a class date sooner rather than later...when are you taking delievery?

We go in for the 1200 hr inspection tomorrow and have a couple weeks of down time. We will have to see what July looks like, but I have a week in Aug when we go in for the IFIS upgrade.

The Nuggets dissapointed me as well...and the Broncos are going to cause me even more mental anguish!

 

[CDogg]

Thanks a lot for the info pilotguy, those numbers really put things in perspective.

Owner is entertaining the G4 option. :beer:

Will let ya'll know what transpires here in a few months...

 

[svcta]

Rice loves Falcons, I love the 300 and svcta loves Gulfstream...we can toss out all kinds of numbers and reasons why...I would say demo some airplanes...at the very least you can get some freebies from the vendors and allow your passengers to get a real feel for what's out there. Keep us in the loop and let us know if your owner pulls the trigger on something new!

Well, I am aware of all of the shortcomings of the -200. Day in and day out the CL is a more capable airplane. But there are a few areas that a G-200 edges ahead and I think that those areas are less of function and more of comfort. That is to say that I think the typical passenger would prefer the G-200, but the typical pilot would prefer the CL30.

I think Gulsftream does have the opp. to make a show stopper with the -250. I hope they come through.

 

[svcta]

So I can't tell - Do you like the cabin on the 300 or not?

Tee hee. I have to say these things where I can't have a hot cup of coffee thrown at me!

 

[t-bone]

Any of you CL guys hear much about the proposed increase in MTOW? Our 300's have the couch option in back, which the pax love, but it really cuts into our useful load...only about 400#s with the tanks full. An increase in MTOW of even just 1000#s would make a world of difference. We just did TEB-EINN-OLBA-ESSB-EINN-BGR and it was a breeze. Cockpit is very comfortable, but I'd been crammed into a C750 for the past 4 years, so I guess it's all relative. I am bummed tho that Bombardier decided we didn't need foot rests anymore. Oh well, the rudder-pedal housing forward of the yoke works great!

Climb straight to 430 almost any day of the week, and within the first hour you'll be at 450 as long as the temps aren't much more than +5.

Hopefully Bombardier responds to the G250 in the near future.

 

[CDogg]

Hey t-bone, glad to hear you are in the 300 - how is everything going there at XO?

Still owe you a beer if you ever get back to FXE.

 

[thatpilotguy]

I was in recurrent a couple months ago at Bombardier and they still didn't have any info on a gross weight increase. They are tossing around 3 ideas...

1. A small increase, paper work change type thing...
2. Modest increase, re-work the gear and paper work change
3. Larger increase, gear overhaul

It seems they are trying to come to an agreement that makes everyone unhappy, but I know what you mean...tanks full and a bit more gas and we would really be in business...probably have to wait till there is more competion to push it through.