CL-601 down in Montrose, CO

[Diesel]

If the guy had a lot of experience how much time did he have operating in the mountains and snow ops.

 

[E120ASA]

You know this is just me talking but I hope this accident was not the result of a company not wanting to pay to have the aircraft deiced. I flew charter and the cost per hour did not include deicing in winter ops. We flew out of the south and management never thought about it. If I had to have the plane deiced that meant we went from a profit to a loss, but the hell with them I had it done anyways because I knew better due to the flying experience I have and that I was not scared of finding a new job as are others. They never covered it in winter operations flying, why because we flew out of places that were not used to icing (south) and the cheaper we were the more charter business we could get. Epps lost a 601 due to not having it deiced while everyone else was doing it now this. I Guess lawsuits are cheaper if they only happen in a blue moon. Crews watch out and make them spend the money to de-ice unless you don’t want to come home…

 

[Gulfstream 200]

Most charter places DO charge extra for de-icing if its needed.

Its NOT up to the charter company to decide when to deice anyways, and I would never think any competent pilot would let this affect his decision.

(Lets hope these ideas are all irrelevent to this accident anyways)

 

[Bandit60]

There is alot to be said about guys who fly in the north verses those who fly in the south. I fly in the south now and I asked one of our pilots what he would do if he was at an airport where it was snowing. He told me he would get the plane into a heated hangar. I asked him if he was sure thats what he wanted to do. He said yes. I proceeded to explain to him that with a warm airplane being pulled out on to the ramp with it snowing was going to make matters worse with the snow actually freezing instead of just laying on the airplane.

Everyone needs to think about winter operations a little more

 

[Singlecoil]

Wasn't this a quick-turn? I've seen reports that support that claim. If that is the case, then de-icing or not isn't at all related to what caused this accident. If it wasn't snowing hard at the time, which some reports indicate, then there was no reason to de-ice.

 

[Gulfstream 200]

the pics I saw of the plane burning showed it snowing pretty good..no not a blizzard but it certainly looked like the white stuff was falling.

Quick turn or not, even 10 mins. It might be relative, or at least looked into very thoroughly to try and find answers..

It certainly does not have to be snowing hard to de-ice.

 

[Diesel]

I used to work for a guy in northern maine that would only let the hanger get to about 30-35 degrees even when we were working in there. Of course it was 40 below outside so at least it was an improvement.

This did two things. It wasn't as hard on the planes for start up but most importantly when the snow fell it wouldn't melt on the plane when we pulled it out for an asap.

Of course rapping your knuckles when it's 30 degrees in a hanger makes it feel like you droped a sledge hammer on them.

We also had an oil dilution switch on our 180 for ski ops. It would inject gas into the oil pan so that the oil wouldn't be so thick on startup. Then would burn off as the oil heated up.

 

[satpak77]

MONTROSE, Colo. - The 14-year-old son of NBC Sports chairman Dick Ebersol was presumed dead Monday after a fiery jet crash that killed two crewmen and left the injured executive and another of his sons begging bystanders for help.

The aircraft with six people on board crashed during a snowstorm Sunday while taking off from the airport outside this small town 185 miles southwest of Denver. Federal authorities had no immediate word on the cause of the crash.

Witnesses described a chaotic scene following the crash. Charles Ebersol, the sports executive's 21-year-old son, was screaming for help and saying his brother was still on the plane, according to Doug Percival, a driver at a towing service who was one of the first to arrive.

"Can you please help get him out?'" Ebersol pleaded, according to Percival. The elder Ebersol was sitting on the ground nearby, rocking back and forth.

"You could tell he was in shock. Both of them had been ripped out of their shoes," said Percival.

With light snow falling, crews began picking through the charred pile of twisted metal and a 6-foot-high shard of the fuselage with three gaping, round windows. The two engines lay on the ground nearby near the tail section where they had been mounted.

A backhoe was brought in to help dig through the wreckage, found near a cattle pen in a snow-covered field dotted with knee-high weeds. A white sheet was draped across part of the site as crews wrapped up work for the day.

"It's going to be a while because unfortunately a lot of the wreckage is still covered with snow," said Arnold Scott, the lead investigator for the National Transportation Safety Board.

Ebersol has been head of NBC Sports for nearly 15 years, and is perhaps best known for his love of the Olympics, which are broadcast on the network.

He and his two sons, Charles and Edward, 14, were flying home from California, where the older son's school, Notre Dame, played a football game Saturday against Southern California. Another Ebersol son, 18-year-old Willie, is a freshman at USC.

They flew to Colorado, where they have a home, to drop off Ebersol's wife, Susan Saint James, an actress who starred in the 1980s television series "Kate and Allie." Then, Ebersol and the two sons were headed to drop off Charles at school in South Bend, Ind.

A heavy snowstorm had eased up before the plane prepared to take off, but there was no immediate word if weather was a factor. Steve McLaughlin of MTJ Air Services, which de-ices private planes at the airport, said his company did not de-ice Ebersol's plane before it took off. Airport Manager Scott Brownlee said he did not know whether the plane had been de-iced.

Deputy coroner Matt Eilts said a search had turned up no sign of Edward, a freshman at a Connecticut boarding school.

"We believe at this time that the boy has probably perished within the crash," Eilts said.

Witnesses said it appeared the plane, a CL-602 Challenger, never got off the ground. It ran off the runway and skidded across a two-lane road, punching through fences on either side before bursting into flames.

Percival said he was going to crawl through a hole in the plane to look for survivors but turned around because of billowing smoke. He said leaking jet fuel soon exploded "like Roman candles."

Gary Ellis was teaching Sunday school at a Baptist Church near the airport when he heard a loud "poof."

"It came to a rest, and a moment or two later it exploded into a huge fireball," said Ellis. "It was burning as it came down the runway."

The FAA said the pilot and a flight attendant were killed. The coroner's office identified the victims as Luis Alberto Polanco Espaillat, 50, of the Dominican Republic and Warren T. Richardson III, 36, of Coral Gables, Fla., but did not say which was the pilot.

The co-pilot was hospitalized in Denver, while Dick and Charles Ebersol were hospitalized in Grand Junction. Eilts said the co-pilot was in critical condition.

The plane was registered to Jet Alliance of Millville, N.J. The company offered its condolences but said it had no additional information.


http://www.zwire.com/site/news.cfm?BRD=1994&dept_id=226374&newsid=13457343&PAG=461&rfi=9

 

[Propsfullfwd]

CNN is reporting that they have found a body and they are waiting on dental records to find out if it is the son. NTSB says that not de-icing is factor.

Props

 

[patq1]

Wasn't this a quick-turn? I've seen reports that support that claim. If that is the case, then de-icing or not isn't at all related to what caused this accident. If it wasn't snowing hard at the time, which some reports indicate, then there was no reason to de-ice.

I hope you are kidding.

 

[Bandit60]

I hope he was kidding also

 

[100LL... Again!]

I think singlecoil was assuming the aircraft landed clean and did a quick turn.

Obviously if it came in all caked up, well...

 

[patq1]

Dude, that's the scroll and paste weather for the airport I fly a caravan into all winter long...no shizzle. Add in some 1/4 mile vis and some of this and some of that and you almost have a clone of my whole season. Did you know the ski hills in the town I go to dont need snow making machines?

Unless you got some braking action reports or Notam'd MU stuff and some "hold over" times...this weather in my book is legal for approach and departure...and very much a fact of life for those of us who "fly for a living".

I know that some corporate flight departments have a policy "not to go" when it excedes their chief pilots grundy factor...but I don't see nothing here that would have caused a pilot to crash his plane.

Maybe this time it IS mechanical? Hmmm...FN says it's a mechanical for a change? Wazzup wit dat?

Ok, tough guy, try ground icing.

 

[Oakum_Boy]

I think singlecoil was assuming the aircraft landed clean and did a quick turn.

Obviously if it came in all caked up, well...

Even if it were very dry snow, if any amount of it collected on top of the flying surfaces- I would say a de/anti-icing was in order...

 

[Looking4Traffic]

"You know this is just me talking but I hope this accident was not the result of a company not wanting to pay to have the aircraft deiced."

I no longer work for Jet Alliance but I can tell you that the company never put pressure on its pilots to refuse deice to save money. We were encouraged to be responsible about money (e.g. keep an eye out for the best fuel prices, etc.) but we were never asked to compromise safety for $$.

Gulfstream200: "They were PFT in 1996. I interviewed there."

I interviewed there five years later and got the job. They never asked me to pay for my type -- maybe it was just their way of screening qualified candidates . . .

I spoke to one of their company people yesterday. He confirmed my suspicion -- the only reason that they're asking pilots to PFT now is because too many guys were getting the type and bailing. Once again, "the few ruining it for the many."

Fly safe.