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CL-601 down in Montrose, CO

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I can confirm the FO is still alive (through a friend of his family). He has a shattered leg, shattered skull and burns over 30% of his body but will make it.

I guess we will find out what happeded soon enough.
 
Anybody know if they were snowplowing runway 13/31? I happened to call the FBO about 30 min prior to hearing of the crash and the FBO stated they were not?? that runway is the shorter of two at MTJ (7500') The other runway (11/17) is 10,000'. My prayers are with them all.


This off the NTSB website:
--------------------------------

NTSB Advisory
National Transportation Safety Board
Washington, DC 20594
November 29, 2004
NTSB BEGINS INVESTIGATION INTO CRASH OF BUSINESS JET IN COLORADO


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

A National Transportation Safety Board investigator is arriving today to begin an investigation into the crash of a business jet in Montrose, Colorado.

The twin engine Canadair Challenger, a CL-600 (N873G), impacted a fence and terrain off the departure end of runway 31 at approximately 9:55 a.m. MST yesterday, November 28, while attempting to take off from Montrose Regional Airport. A post-crash fire ensued. There were 6 persons aboard, including two pilots and a flight attendant. Among the passengers were NBC television executive Dick Ebersol and members of his family. Local authorities report that the two pilots were killed and a passenger is missing. The other three persons were hospitalized.

The plane was owned by Jet Alliance/Air Castle Corporation and operated by Global Aviation as Glow Air flight 73. The charter flight's destination was South Bend, Indiana.

NTSB Senior Air Safety Investigator Arnold Scott from the Safety Board's Denver regional office is the Investigator-in-Charge. The following parties will provide assistance to Mr. Scott: the Federal Aviation Administration, Canadair, and General Electric Engines. The Transportation Safety Board of Canada is sending an accredited representative. NTSB press officer Keith Holloway will also assist Mr. Scott at the scene.

Information on the scheduling of press briefings will be announced when Mr. Holloway arrives in Montrose.

NTSB Press Contacts:
Keith Holloway (at the scene) - (202) 557-1350
In Washington: (202) 314-6100
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Looking4Traffic said:
I flew with this company for about one year and I'd like to make the following observations:

1. Unless it's changed, the actual registration for the aircraft is 873GL, a Challenger 601. It was one of about 8 large business aircraft flown by Jet Alliance, also known as Global Airways, also known as Global Aviation, and previously known as Air Castle. The company's lead executives have been associated with the same business for two decades. To my knowledge, this is their first serious accident.

2. This aircraft was always well-maintained and the company was, in my opinion, run very professionally. For that reason, we commonly flew celebrities and dignataries throughout the country and around the world.

3. Their pay-for-training philosophy is a new one. Though I've never spoken to the company about this issue, I suspect that they are now requiring PFT because of the number of pilots who acquired a $20,000 type-rating, then skipped out to the airlines after a year without paying off their training contract. Rather then being burdened with collecting on these contract, Jet Alliance (like many other PT 135 carriers) have opted to require the type-rating (one-way-or-another) up front.

4. I do not know the pilots on this flight (they were hired after I left). I cannot comment on their experience, the conditions that they faced or the quality of their decisions. But I do know this: Part 135 operations is about the most difficult kind of flying out there. You are on the pager and can be called out to fly at any time to a place you've never been to before. You fly high-performance jets in and out-of short runways, in high density areas on a regular basis, and you don't typically have the kind of on-site support expected by an airline pilot. As professional pilots, we are quick to second-guess decisions made by our colleagues -- whether it's a decision to pay for a type-rating to feed our families or a decision to hit the brakes at or near V1 to avoid a climb-out in high terrain when something seems seriously wrong with the airplane. I suggest that everyone pauses first, for just a moment, and thanks whatever diety they happen to believe in, that they're still around to fly that next trip and that they will likely face nothing more than the mundane and routine experience, not the terrifying moments that we'd prefer not to consider.

Pray for our colleagues and pray for their families.
Click to expand...


Air Castle was PFT back in 1996.
Required you to pay for your Initial FSI training.
I interviewed there.
 
Man you all focus on some weird sh$t. PFT, not PFT, is this the defenition of safety in your minds?? There is some valuable information that will come out of this horrific accident and, like always, we will learn from it. Get over the minutia. The PFT issue may indicate what type of company they run (I'd never do it), but then again, it might not.
 
I disagree, its not weird in the larger context. While I certainly don't like to see airplanes bent and people hurt or killed, it is a relevant question. Would you, if you were a passenger, want to ride on a plane where the two crewmembers were hired strictly on their qualifications and experience OR a plane where one of the crew was hired partly for his qualifications and partly because he was willing to subsidize the company's costs of doing business in order to gain employment? How often do passengers know or even ask about the experience of the pilots?

Again, this is not slam against any crewmembers, especially the unfortunate souls aboard the accident aircraft. It is a question about the philosophy of PFT.
 
LXJ31 said:
I disagree, its not weird in the larger context. While I certainly don't like to see airplanes bent and people hurt or killed, it is a relevant question. Would you, if you were a passenger, want to ride on a plane where the two crewmembers were hired strictly on their qualifications and experience OR a plane where one of the crew was hired partly for his qualifications and partly because he was willing to subsidize the company's costs of doing business in order to gain employment? How often do passengers know or even ask about the experience of the pilots?

Again, this is not slam against any crewmembers, especially the unfortunate souls aboard the accident aircraft. It is a question about the philosophy of PFT.
Click to expand...
OK....then one could say that NetJet pilots who are getting about half of the industry standard wages and flying more legs and hours are subsidizing their company. Does that make them unsafe?
 
By that argument, any airline, corporate or flight instructing pilot making less than average wage is subsidizing his employer. I don't think that argument is the same as the one I stated above. In my example, a passenger has to choose between riding on a plane where the crew was hired strictly based on their resume and riding on an aircraft where the hiring decision for the flight crew was based partly on the resume and partly on subsidizing the company.

Lets say your mom is getting an operation. You have a choice between a doctor with a fine resume, clean record but is expensive. The other doctor , while being a good guy, is not as experienced and is giving the hospital a kickback on his salary in order to be working. Who do you want cutting open your mother?
 
Ace-of-the-Base said:
OK....then one could say that NetJet pilots who are getting about half of the industry standard wages and flying more legs and hours are subsidizing their company. Does that make them unsafe?
Click to expand...
Not necessarily...

but you can bet your a$$ Netjets isn't getting the cream of the crop for 28K/yr.

A certain level of pilot feels the need to go the desperate PFT route, but I wouldn't care to speculate on what level this affects safety as that would be a pure guess.

All I can say is I wouldn't want anyone but the best flying my family around...and I cant imagine the best have to pay for thier jobs.
 
I don't know how PFT has anything to do with this accident. Please respect the pilots/pax family and friends before shooting off your mouth about who's fault it is and thinking that the crew must have been inexperienced. One of our pilots happens to know the Capt and had this to say on our company website...

I just received a call from the Dominican Republic from a good friend of mine informing me of the death of one of my closest friends and mentor, Capt. Luis Polanco was flying the Challenger that crashed in Colorado yesterday, "Don Luis" was one of the most professional pilots that I had the honor to fly with, I had the opportunity to fly in a company on which he was the Chief Pilot after I left the cargo job from 84 to 86, Polanco was a graduate of Embry Riddle with a Masters degree in Aviation, he also was a Lawyer Graduated in the top College in Dominican Republic with a Masters from "Sorbonne" in Paris, Spoke Spanish, English, French, and Italian, fluently, Was Dual rated in A/C and helicopters and was an FAA designee in both, He flew everything a corporate pilot could fly, from just about the whole Citation family, G-2, G-3, CL- 601, StarShip, Bell 206, Bell 222, Sikorsky SR-76, was the FAA's designated liaison pilot for the approval of the NDB approaches for the Santiago Airport and The Samana airports (I had the honor of working with him in those projects), Don Luis was a true gentleman and Accomplished pilot doesn't even comes close to give him his due merits as an airman, He was a mentor and a friend, another crude reminder of the high balancing act we perform everyday, If I can point to my biggest achievement in aviation was to hear Don Luis tell me that he was proud of me when I told him about this company and the quality and professionalism that my colleges here at Pinnacle have.

Does this CA sound like PFT or inexperience had anything to do with this accident???
 
"I don't know how PFT has anything to do with this accident. Please respect the pilots/pax family and friends before shooting off your mouth about who's fault it is and thinking that the crew must have been inexperienced"

I've been posting my messages on flippin' eggshells to keep from offending anyone. I don't see any posts here being disrespectful or placing blame; please give us more credit than that. I'm sure the Captain was a good guy and intelligent, especially having gone to The Sorbonne. However, the company in question advertises PFT jobs. That makes PFT itself a relevant issue and certainly open to discussion. If you find that offensive then call your congressman.
 
Speedmode said:
I don't know how PFT has anything to do with this accident. Please respect the pilots/pax family and friends before shooting off your mouth about who's fault it is and thinking that the crew must have been inexperienced. One of our pilots happens to know the Capt and had this to say on our company website...

I just received a call from the Dominican Republic from a good friend of mine informing me of the death of one of my closest friends and mentor, Capt. Luis Polanco was flying the Challenger that crashed in Colorado yesterday, "Don Luis" was one of the most professional pilots that I had the honor to fly with, I had the opportunity to fly in a company on which he was the Chief Pilot after I left the cargo job from 84 to 86, Polanco was a graduate of Embry Riddle with a Masters degree in Aviation, he also was a Lawyer Graduated in the top College in Dominican Republic with a Masters from "Sorbonne" in Paris, Spoke Spanish, English, French, and Italian, fluently, Was Dual rated in A/C and helicopters and was an FAA designee in both, He flew everything a corporate pilot could fly, from just about the whole Citation family, G-2, G-3, CL- 601, StarShip, Bell 206, Bell 222, Sikorsky SR-76, was the FAA's designated liaison pilot for the approval of the NDB approaches for the Santiago Airport and The Samana airports (I had the honor of working with him in those projects), Don Luis was a true gentleman and Accomplished pilot doesn't even comes close to give him his due merits as an airman, He was a mentor and a friend, another crude reminder of the high balancing act we perform everyday, If I can point to my biggest achievement in aviation was to hear Don Luis tell me that he was proud of me when I told him about this company and the quality and professionalism that my colleges here at Pinnacle have.

Does this CA sound like PFT or inexperience had anything to do with this accident???
Click to expand...

Nope. He sounded VERY talented and extremely qualifed.

Was he flying?
 
I don't find it offending....I'm just saying that the CA obviously had a ton of flight time and was highly experienced...and for people to start talking about PFT and this accident is ridiculous.
 
"...for people to start talking about PFT and this accident is ridiculous."

We'll just have to disagree.

I've never said the PFT had anything to do with this particular accident. But it is relevant to the discussion if the Jet Alliance advertises PFT jobs.
 
WW24dude said:
Anybody know if they were snowplowing runway 13/31?

----------------------------------------------
Click to expand...
There was no need to plow. The snow was not staying on the runway.

I was on the MTJ commerical ramp about 30 minutes after the crash. My friend that was working the SkyWest ramp said that he heard the challenger's engine wind up, then what sounded like an explosion. The next time he looked he saw the towering black cloud of burning Jet-A which was present still when I got there.

Poor people. I have my opinions about PFT too, but this is not the hardly place to discuss it.

Jack
 
If the guy had a lot of experience how much time did he have operating in the mountains and snow ops.
 
You know this is just me talking but I hope this accident was not the result of a company not wanting to pay to have the aircraft deiced. I flew charter and the cost per hour did not include deicing in winter ops. We flew out of the south and management never thought about it. If I had to have the plane deiced that meant we went from a profit to a loss, but the hell with them I had it done anyways because I knew better due to the flying experience I have and that I was not scared of finding a new job as are others. They never covered it in winter operations flying, why because we flew out of places that were not used to icing (south) and the cheaper we were the more charter business we could get. Epps lost a 601 due to not having it deiced while everyone else was doing it now this. I Guess lawsuits are cheaper if they only happen in a blue moon. Crews watch out and make them spend the money to de-ice unless you don’t want to come home…
 
Most charter places DO charge extra for de-icing if its needed.

Its NOT up to the charter company to decide when to deice anyways, and I would never think any competent pilot would let this affect his decision.

(Lets hope these ideas are all irrelevent to this accident anyways)
 
There is alot to be said about guys who fly in the north verses those who fly in the south. I fly in the south now and I asked one of our pilots what he would do if he was at an airport where it was snowing. He told me he would get the plane into a heated hangar. I asked him if he was sure thats what he wanted to do. He said yes. I proceeded to explain to him that with a warm airplane being pulled out on to the ramp with it snowing was going to make matters worse with the snow actually freezing instead of just laying on the airplane.

Everyone needs to think about winter operations a little more
 
Wasn't this a quick-turn? I've seen reports that support that claim. If that is the case, then de-icing or not isn't at all related to what caused this accident. If it wasn't snowing hard at the time, which some reports indicate, then there was no reason to de-ice.
 
the pics I saw of the plane burning showed it snowing pretty good..no not a blizzard but it certainly looked like the white stuff was falling.

Quick turn or not, even 10 mins. It might be relative, or at least looked into very thoroughly to try and find answers..

It certainly does not have to be snowing hard to de-ice.
 
I used to work for a guy in northern maine that would only let the hanger get to about 30-35 degrees even when we were working in there. Of course it was 40 below outside so at least it was an improvement.

This did two things. It wasn't as hard on the planes for start up but most importantly when the snow fell it wouldn't melt on the plane when we pulled it out for an asap.

Of course rapping your knuckles when it's 30 degrees in a hanger makes it feel like you droped a sledge hammer on them.

We also had an oil dilution switch on our 180 for ski ops. It would inject gas into the oil pan so that the oil wouldn't be so thick on startup. Then would burn off as the oil heated up.
 



MONTROSE, Colo. - The 14-year-old son of NBC Sports chairman Dick Ebersol was presumed dead Monday after a fiery jet crash that killed two crewmen and left the injured executive and another of his sons begging bystanders for help.

The aircraft with six people on board crashed during a snowstorm Sunday while taking off from the airport outside this small town 185 miles southwest of Denver. Federal authorities had no immediate word on the cause of the crash.

Witnesses described a chaotic scene following the crash. Charles Ebersol, the sports executive's 21-year-old son, was screaming for help and saying his brother was still on the plane, according to Doug Percival, a driver at a towing service who was one of the first to arrive.

"Can you please help get him out?'" Ebersol pleaded, according to Percival. The elder Ebersol was sitting on the ground nearby, rocking back and forth.

"You could tell he was in shock. Both of them had been ripped out of their shoes," said Percival.

With light snow falling, crews began picking through the charred pile of twisted metal and a 6-foot-high shard of the fuselage with three gaping, round windows. The two engines lay on the ground nearby near the tail section where they had been mounted.

A backhoe was brought in to help dig through the wreckage, found near a cattle pen in a snow-covered field dotted with knee-high weeds. A white sheet was draped across part of the site as crews wrapped up work for the day.

"It's going to be a while because unfortunately a lot of the wreckage is still covered with snow," said Arnold Scott, the lead investigator for the National Transportation Safety Board.

Ebersol has been head of NBC Sports for nearly 15 years, and is perhaps best known for his love of the Olympics, which are broadcast on the network.

He and his two sons, Charles and Edward, 14, were flying home from California, where the older son's school, Notre Dame, played a football game Saturday against Southern California. Another Ebersol son, 18-year-old Willie, is a freshman at USC.

They flew to Colorado, where they have a home, to drop off Ebersol's wife, Susan Saint James, an actress who starred in the 1980s television series "Kate and Allie." Then, Ebersol and the two sons were headed to drop off Charles at school in South Bend, Ind.

A heavy snowstorm had eased up before the plane prepared to take off, but there was no immediate word if weather was a factor. Steve McLaughlin of MTJ Air Services, which de-ices private planes at the airport, said his company did not de-ice Ebersol's plane before it took off. Airport Manager Scott Brownlee said he did not know whether the plane had been de-iced.

Deputy coroner Matt Eilts said a search had turned up no sign of Edward, a freshman at a Connecticut boarding school.

"We believe at this time that the boy has probably perished within the crash," Eilts said.

Witnesses said it appeared the plane, a CL-602 Challenger, never got off the ground. It ran off the runway and skidded across a two-lane road, punching through fences on either side before bursting into flames.

Percival said he was going to crawl through a hole in the plane to look for survivors but turned around because of billowing smoke. He said leaking jet fuel soon exploded "like Roman candles."

Gary Ellis was teaching Sunday school at a Baptist Church near the airport when he heard a loud "poof."

"It came to a rest, and a moment or two later it exploded into a huge fireball," said Ellis. "It was burning as it came down the runway."

The FAA said the pilot and a flight attendant were killed. The coroner's office identified the victims as Luis Alberto Polanco Espaillat, 50, of the Dominican Republic and Warren T. Richardson III, 36, of Coral Gables, Fla., but did not say which was the pilot.

The co-pilot was hospitalized in Denver, while Dick and Charles Ebersol were hospitalized in Grand Junction. Eilts said the co-pilot was in critical condition.

The plane was registered to Jet Alliance of Millville, N.J. The company offered its condolences but said it had no additional information.


http://www.zwire.com/site/news.cfm?BRD=1994&dept_id=226374&newsid=13457343&PAG=461&rfi=9
 
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Singlecoil said:
Wasn't this a quick-turn? I've seen reports that support that claim. If that is the case, then de-icing or not isn't at all related to what caused this accident. If it wasn't snowing hard at the time, which some reports indicate, then there was no reason to de-ice.
Click to expand...


I hope you are kidding.
 
FN FAL said:
Dude, that's the scroll and paste weather for the airport I fly a caravan into all winter long...no shizzle. Add in some 1/4 mile vis and some of this and some of that and you almost have a clone of my whole season. Did you know the ski hills in the town I go to dont need snow making machines?

Unless you got some braking action reports or Notam'd MU stuff and some "hold over" times...this weather in my book is legal for approach and departure...and very much a fact of life for those of us who "fly for a living".

I know that some corporate flight departments have a policy "not to go" when it excedes their chief pilots grundy factor...but I don't see nothing here that would have caused a pilot to crash his plane.

Maybe this time it IS mechanical? Hmmm...FN says it's a mechanical for a change? Wazzup wit dat?
Click to expand...

Ok, tough guy, try ground icing.
 
100LL... Again! said:
I think singlecoil was assuming the aircraft landed clean and did a quick turn.

Obviously if it came in all caked up, well...
Click to expand...
Even if it were very dry snow, if any amount of it collected on top of the flying surfaces- I would say a de/anti-icing was in order...
 
"You know this is just me talking but I hope this accident was not the result of a company not wanting to pay to have the aircraft deiced."

I no longer work for Jet Alliance but I can tell you that the company never put pressure on its pilots to refuse deice to save money. We were encouraged to be responsible about money (e.g. keep an eye out for the best fuel prices, etc.) but we were never asked to compromise safety for $$.

Gulfstream200: "They were PFT in 1996. I interviewed there."

I interviewed there five years later and got the job. They never asked me to pay for my type -- maybe it was just their way of screening qualified candidates . . .

I spoke to one of their company people yesterday. He confirmed my suspicion -- the only reason that they're asking pilots to PFT now is because too many guys were getting the type and bailing. Once again, "the few ruining it for the many."

Fly safe.
 

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