justApilot
Dawn Patroller
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CL-601 down in Montrose, CO
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Frac Daddy
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FN FAL
Freight Dawgs Rule
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Dude, that's the scroll and paste weather for the airport I fly a caravan into all winter long...no shizzle. Add in some 1/4 mile vis and some of this and some of that and you almost have a clone of my whole season. Did you know the ski hills in the town I go to dont need snow making machines?
Unless you got some braking action reports or Notam'd MU stuff and some "hold over" times...this weather in my book is legal for approach and departure...and very much a fact of life for those of us who "fly for a living".
I know that some corporate flight departments have a policy "not to go" when it excedes their chief pilots grundy factor...but I don't see nothing here that would have caused a pilot to crash his plane.
Maybe this time it IS mechanical? Hmmm...FN says it's a mechanical for a change? Wazzup wit dat?
joe_pilot
There be whales here!
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The most important thing to remember is that people have died. My thoughts are with their families and friends first and foremost.
PFT: Ok, technically this might be buying a job, but look at their minimum requirements. Asking someone with 2500/1500 and 1000 PIC ME is VASTLY different than having a commercial MEL, 50 or so PIC MEL and 250 SIC turbine!!
I’m not even going to get into whether or not the latter should occur. I’m just saying that in relative terms an applicant that they are looking for probably has some fairly decent decision making skills. In fact they would have significantly more time than any regional that I know of is asking for!
I think that, along with the fact that, once again – fellow pilots have DIED, makes the PFT issue, in this thread, both invalid and more importantly, inappropriate.
-J
PFT: Ok, technically this might be buying a job, but look at their minimum requirements. Asking someone with 2500/1500 and 1000 PIC ME is VASTLY different than having a commercial MEL, 50 or so PIC MEL and 250 SIC turbine!!
I’m not even going to get into whether or not the latter should occur. I’m just saying that in relative terms an applicant that they are looking for probably has some fairly decent decision making skills. In fact they would have significantly more time than any regional that I know of is asking for!
I think that, along with the fact that, once again – fellow pilots have DIED, makes the PFT issue, in this thread, both invalid and more importantly, inappropriate.
-J
User546
The Ultimate Show Stopper
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http://www.cnn.com/2004/US/11/29/ebersol.crash.ap/index.html
CNN is reporting that the Challenger is a 18-19 seat aircraft.
I didn't think the Challenger's seated that many people. Is this true or just another media blunder?
CNN is reporting that the Challenger is a 18-19 seat aircraft.
I didn't think the Challenger's seated that many people. Is this true or just another media blunder?
goofyleftwich
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Ace-of-the-Base
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Publishers
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Ace-of-the-Base
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FN FAL
Freight Dawgs Rule
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MetroSheriff
Hittin' the road...
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NBC Sports Chief Survives Plane Crashcaseyd said:
Sun Nov 28, 9:46 PM
By P. SOLOMON BANDA, Associated Press Writer
DENVER -
....................
Eyewitness Chuck Distel told The Associated Press by phone that Charles, a college senior, helped his father out through the front of the plane, whose cockpit had been ripped off by the force of the crash.
The station said crews searched for Edward "Teddy" Ebersol, 14, by helicopter and on the ground. NBC said the plane seat was missing from the wreckage.
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CL600Pilot
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Yes, but what's the point here?? The aicraft in Birmingham had enough ice/frost on the aircraft to cause any high performance airfoil problems. Your inference is that it's a Challenger problem.Ace-of-the-Base said:
I don't have any Challenger manuals with me but in the limitations section they are certified for some ungodly number of passengers - I actually thought it was higher than 18 - I was thinking maybe it was 21(21 - 3 crew = 18, is that where they got 18???). At any rate, typical seating config for a 601 would be 9 to 11 pax. King Airs are the same way - they're 'certified' for about twice(if I remember correctly) the number of occupants that typical seating would allow for.
CL
Daveman
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Last edited:
Gatorman
Snot-nosed college boy!!
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Challenger info
FYI...the Challenger is rated as a 19 passenger aircraft, if you like sardines. All of the Challengers I have worked on are 10 or 12 seats in the cabin.
I have been following this story as closely as I can concidering that I have put my wrench on almost every 600 & 601 made. I am getting mixed info about the aircraft though, I ran the tail number and the feds have it down as S/N 3009 and owned by Hop-a-Jet is Fla. (but we all know how well uncle fed updates those records)
As far as it being a mechanical problem.....I doubt it.
Like I hear all the time on departures....It flew in without any problems.
If it were mechanical, it has to be weather/proceedure related, such as deiceing. Given the current information from the eyewitness, the aircraft was departing and was off the ground. Then he says that it skidded off the end of the runway.
From that information, I gather that the aircraft had been in the correct T/O configuration and had made suffecient power (given the cold weather temp and altitude) to rotate.
Now, since we do not have all the facts and will not for some time, there is nothing to say the the pilot aborted the takeoff and mis-judged the runway condition.
I hope that I do not sound like I am not flameing here. I just don't like to here that it is always a mechanical problem.
Challenger crews,
Here is some freebie advise for those of you departing in snow or freezing rain conditions.....please, please, leave the aircraft hangared until the last minute. I know it is not possible in some cases, but it will be better for the aircraft and it will be more confortable for the passengers when they board. If you cannot keep it hangared, make darn sure the the flaps are completely up and all the red gear are installed. Before you depart, lower the flaps and chack that the inboard flap vanes are able to move freely...not sticking at all. Pull down on them from the center of the flap section and slide them several times to be sure.
Sticking flap vanes may cause an extreme loss of lift on that wing!!!
Remember...be safe, you have the authority not to fly if you feel the conditions are not safe.
FYI...the Challenger is rated as a 19 passenger aircraft, if you like sardines. All of the Challengers I have worked on are 10 or 12 seats in the cabin.
I have been following this story as closely as I can concidering that I have put my wrench on almost every 600 & 601 made. I am getting mixed info about the aircraft though, I ran the tail number and the feds have it down as S/N 3009 and owned by Hop-a-Jet is Fla. (but we all know how well uncle fed updates those records)
As far as it being a mechanical problem.....I doubt it.
Like I hear all the time on departures....It flew in without any problems.
If it were mechanical, it has to be weather/proceedure related, such as deiceing. Given the current information from the eyewitness, the aircraft was departing and was off the ground. Then he says that it skidded off the end of the runway.
From that information, I gather that the aircraft had been in the correct T/O configuration and had made suffecient power (given the cold weather temp and altitude) to rotate.
Now, since we do not have all the facts and will not for some time, there is nothing to say the the pilot aborted the takeoff and mis-judged the runway condition.
I hope that I do not sound like I am not flameing here. I just don't like to here that it is always a mechanical problem.
Challenger crews,
Here is some freebie advise for those of you departing in snow or freezing rain conditions.....please, please, leave the aircraft hangared until the last minute. I know it is not possible in some cases, but it will be better for the aircraft and it will be more confortable for the passengers when they board. If you cannot keep it hangared, make darn sure the the flaps are completely up and all the red gear are installed. Before you depart, lower the flaps and chack that the inboard flap vanes are able to move freely...not sticking at all. Pull down on them from the center of the flap section and slide them several times to be sure.
Sticking flap vanes may cause an extreme loss of lift on that wing!!!
Remember...be safe, you have the authority not to fly if you feel the conditions are not safe.
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Dumbledore
My Kids' Doormat
- Joined
- Aug 26, 2004
- Posts
- 113
Clarity is beginning to emerge from the fog
And from the NY Post we have this eyewitness account.
Everyone who has said that we need to remember that people died here are exactly right - people DID die and there was a solid reason for it. We just don't know what it is yet, but we will. In the meantime, let's all keep the additional rigors of cold weather operations front and center as winter sets in. Know well what you're setting yourself up for and you might not take a hard fall if something does come unhinged.
Oh, and one other thing. Note the part about the survivors not having shoes on. That's important! The most common injury to aircraft accident survivors is lacerations and burns to the feet. The reason? No shoes. The reason for no shoes is that most people don't wear lace-up shoes when they fly and in the impact their shoes come off, leaving them to walk through shredded metal and burning debris to get away from the scene.
As crewmembers, or even just as pilots we should all be wearing lace-up shoes. They're the best chance one has of assisting injured crash victims or for escaping ourselves if that's all that's possible after an accident.
And from the NY Post we have this eyewitness account.
Now, I have seen the METARs and I know it might not seem as though it should have been all that bad but that METAR comes from an ASOS and I have more than a few reasons not to fully trust what these machines report as being acceptable - seen 'em wrong WAY too many times. When eyewitness laypeople call it a whiteout it's NOT good, regardless of what the METAR indicates. The simple fact is that poor visbility is not a plus when other factors - like slippery runway, snow contaminiation that makes the centerline invisible, or icing, etc. - start getting involved.NY Post said:
Everyone who has said that we need to remember that people died here are exactly right - people DID die and there was a solid reason for it. We just don't know what it is yet, but we will. In the meantime, let's all keep the additional rigors of cold weather operations front and center as winter sets in. Know well what you're setting yourself up for and you might not take a hard fall if something does come unhinged.
Oh, and one other thing. Note the part about the survivors not having shoes on. That's important! The most common injury to aircraft accident survivors is lacerations and burns to the feet. The reason? No shoes. The reason for no shoes is that most people don't wear lace-up shoes when they fly and in the impact their shoes come off, leaving them to walk through shredded metal and burning debris to get away from the scene.
As crewmembers, or even just as pilots we should all be wearing lace-up shoes. They're the best chance one has of assisting injured crash victims or for escaping ourselves if that's all that's possible after an accident.
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Looking4Traffic
RFP Aircraft Delivery
- Joined
- Mar 16, 2003
- Posts
- 129
I flew with this company for about one year and I'd like to make the following observations:
1. Unless it's changed, the actual registration for the aircraft is 873GL, a Challenger 601. It was one of about 8 large business aircraft flown by Jet Alliance, also known as Global Airways, also known as Global Aviation, and previously known as Air Castle. The company's lead executives have been associated with the same business for two decades. To my knowledge, this is their first serious accident.
2. This aircraft was always well-maintained and the company was, in my opinion, run very professionally. For that reason, we commonly flew celebrities and dignataries throughout the country and around the world.
3. Their pay-for-training philosophy is a new one. Though I've never spoken to the company about this issue, I suspect that they are now requiring PFT because of the number of pilots who acquired a $20,000 type-rating, then skipped out to the airlines after a year without paying off their training contract. Rather then being burdened with collecting on these contract, Jet Alliance (like many other PT 135 carriers) have opted to require the type-rating (one-way-or-another) up front.
4. I do not know the pilots on this flight (they were hired after I left). I cannot comment on their experience, the conditions that they faced or the quality of their decisions. But I do know this: Part 135 operations is about the most difficult kind of flying out there. You are on the pager and can be called out to fly at any time to a place you've never been to before. You fly high-performance jets in and out-of short runways, in high density areas on a regular basis, and you don't typically have the kind of on-site support expected by an airline pilot. As professional pilots, we are quick to second-guess decisions made by our colleagues -- whether it's a decision to pay for a type-rating to feed our families or a decision to hit the brakes at or near V1 to avoid a climb-out in high terrain when something seems seriously wrong with the airplane. I suggest that everyone pauses first, for just a moment, and thanks whatever diety they happen to believe in, that they're still around to fly that next trip and that they will likely face nothing more than the mundane and routine experience, not the terrifying moments that we'd prefer not to consider.
Pray for our colleagues and pray for their families.
1. Unless it's changed, the actual registration for the aircraft is 873GL, a Challenger 601. It was one of about 8 large business aircraft flown by Jet Alliance, also known as Global Airways, also known as Global Aviation, and previously known as Air Castle. The company's lead executives have been associated with the same business for two decades. To my knowledge, this is their first serious accident.
2. This aircraft was always well-maintained and the company was, in my opinion, run very professionally. For that reason, we commonly flew celebrities and dignataries throughout the country and around the world.
3. Their pay-for-training philosophy is a new one. Though I've never spoken to the company about this issue, I suspect that they are now requiring PFT because of the number of pilots who acquired a $20,000 type-rating, then skipped out to the airlines after a year without paying off their training contract. Rather then being burdened with collecting on these contract, Jet Alliance (like many other PT 135 carriers) have opted to require the type-rating (one-way-or-another) up front.
4. I do not know the pilots on this flight (they were hired after I left). I cannot comment on their experience, the conditions that they faced or the quality of their decisions. But I do know this: Part 135 operations is about the most difficult kind of flying out there. You are on the pager and can be called out to fly at any time to a place you've never been to before. You fly high-performance jets in and out-of short runways, in high density areas on a regular basis, and you don't typically have the kind of on-site support expected by an airline pilot. As professional pilots, we are quick to second-guess decisions made by our colleagues -- whether it's a decision to pay for a type-rating to feed our families or a decision to hit the brakes at or near V1 to avoid a climb-out in high terrain when something seems seriously wrong with the airplane. I suggest that everyone pauses first, for just a moment, and thanks whatever diety they happen to believe in, that they're still around to fly that next trip and that they will likely face nothing more than the mundane and routine experience, not the terrifying moments that we'd prefer not to consider.
Pray for our colleagues and pray for their families.
Gulfstream 200
Database Expert
- Joined
- Jan 21, 2002
- Posts
- 4,574
not sure if previously posted ::
Fox news has the plane came from LA, dropped off wife and quick turned out. Line guy says they did not de-ice.
www.foxnews.com
Fox news has the plane came from LA, dropped off wife and quick turned out. Line guy says they did not de-ice.
www.foxnews.com
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