CL-601 down in Montrose, CO

[ifly4u]

Funny, seems nobody at these PFT outfits ever PFT's!? They always were the "exception" or got in "just after they stopped that"....uh, yeah...



.

LMAO! That's so true, come to think of it I don't think I've ever met anyone who's actually admitted to PFTing. That wasn't us sir, that was like uhhhmmm, huh huh huh, some other guys. LOL

 

[Gulfstream 200]

I understand all the objections to PFT, etc. but I still have a dumb question(s) ---

Two pilots, each with the same basic qualifications and flight time, go to Flight Safety. Each takes an "initial" course in a particular airplane, completes the course, takes a check ride and emerges with a new type rating on his certificate. They attend the course at the same time (same instructor for classroom and sim) and they take the checkride with the same FAA inspector.

One of them (#1) writes a check to FSI for $20K, says goodbye and leaves. The other (#2) gives FSI a voucher from his company for $20K, says goodbye and leaves.

Q-1. Was the course and checkride for pilot #1 different from the course and checkride for pilot #2?

Q-2. Which one is more qualified and a better pilot at the end of the course, Pilot #1 or Pilot #2.

Q-3. One year later, after flying the same airplane for approximately the same number of hours, one of them is involved in a fatal accident. The investigation shows that the probable cause was pilot error. Which one had the accident, pilot #1 or pilot #2?

Q-4. What is the reason for your answer(s)?

Have you ever attended a FSI course?
A MONKEY could "pass" one.
If you "Fail" a FSI course you should be taken out back and shot. plain and simple.

All they do is train you to know the aircraft, thats thier job. They do it well.
It has nothing to do with your real world piloting skills.
You would not believe the things you see "Captains" doing in these sims.

By what you are saying is that when these two folks walk out of FSI they are both qualified Captains. Nothing could be further from the truth.

However...many lower level jobs (read PFT if you want) see them as Captains. They met the mins, they checked the box. Here is the aircraft, we have insurance. Or sometimes...here Real Capt, here is your PFT F/O - dont let him kill you...after all it only takes one real guy to make this happen...

Nobody WANTS to PFT. These people have been turned down by real employers for whatever reason...experience, skills, backgrounds,...whatever they are lacking..they have only one choice left - step down a level to the PFT world. BAMM - now they are pilots. Put that hat on, get the luggage and take the snapshot in front of the 1900 or the CRJ (or whatever) for mommy. I made it!!....and by the way, ask me 3 years later and "I didnt PFT". Im embarassed to explain it. It was my only hope.

Whatever happens a year from now has nothing to do with passing a FSI checkride, it has everything to do with the pilots skills, background, and experience as a whole.

Now, knowing that I would compare pilot 1 to pilot 2 and I bet you can tell a huge difference.

Just a guess..

MY THEORY: (I know...look out!)....Each and every accident is a chain of events. Why intentional start with a weak link in the cockpit?

call me crazy...

 

[JumpJetter]

For God's sake,....can you guys go start a ANOTHER PFT thread somewhere else? I mean, everyone of these threads you same _____ (<--insert insult here) have to start a discussion like this and hijack the thread...

 

[Looking4Traffic]

Jumpjetter --


I'm with you, man. I'm outta here.

Gulfstream200 -- what exactly are you doing right now (i.e. what kind of employment)? 'Cause man, you sure seem to know a lot about EVERYTHING!!

I'd just like to find out what YOUR actual experience is so that we can determine if you're credible to speak about anything in aviation or whether you're just full of crrrrrrrrap.

 

[Gulfstream 200]

Jumpjetter --


I'm with you, man. I'm outta here.

Gulfstream200 -- what exactly are you doing right now (i.e. what kind of employment)? 'Cause man, you sure seem to know a lot about EVERYTHING!!

I'd just like to find out what YOUR actual experience is so that we can determine if you're credible to speak about anything in aviation or whether you're just full of crrrrrrrrap.

Yeah, this PFT thing is dead. Either way it got way off the initial thread I suppose.

full of crrrrap huh? Sounds like I struck a chord with the desperate PFT comments??

.

 

[Singlecoil]

I think singlecoil was assuming the aircraft landed clean and did a quick turn.

Obviously if it came in all caked up, well...

Thanks. That is exactly what I was trying to say.

One other thing, I'm not familiar with these engines. Do they have EPR gauges? Could not having the engine anti-ice on have caused a reduced thrust situation like the Air Florida 737 in DC?

 

[surplus1]

Gulfstream200,

I think you sidestepped the questions because you really don't have any logical answers.

PFT is an economic issue and it has nothing to do with piloting skills or the lack thereof.

We all make mistakes but none of those mistakes have any real relationship to who signed the check.

Given the same level of experience and the same scenario, who paid for the training will have no verifiable impact on the outcome.

I think you're p_issing into the wind.

 

[Oakum_Boy]

Gulfstream200,

I think you sidestepped the questions because you really don't have any logical answers.

PFT is an economic issue and it has nothing to do with piloting skills or the lack thereof.

We all make mistakes but none of those mistakes have any real relationship to who signed the check.

Given the same level of experience and the same scenario, who paid for the training will have no verifiable impact on the outcome.

I think you're p_issing into the wind.

Umm, well I think it is well understood that those who pay for their training are less qualified than those who can command a job which doesn't require it. I don't see Northwest or Delta pilots paying for their training. And guess what? They are way more qualified than those paying for training at the regional level. You can't possibly make an argument based on "everything else being equal", because it's not! Try that lawyer logic...

 

[LXJ31]

I understand all the objections to PFT, etc. but I still have a dumb question(s) ---

Two pilots, each with the same basic qualifications and flight time, go to Flight Safety. Each takes an "initial" course in a particular airplane, completes the course, takes a check ride and emerges with a new type rating on his certificate. They attend the course at the same time (same instructor for classroom and sim) and they take the checkride with the same FAA inspector.

One of them (#1) writes a check to FSI for $20K, says goodbye and leaves. The other (#2) gives FSI a voucher from his company for $20K, says goodbye and leaves.

Q-1. Was the course and checkride for pilot #1 different from the course and checkride for pilot #2?

Q-2. Which one is more qualified and a better pilot at the end of the course, Pilot #1 or Pilot #2.

Q-3. One year later, after flying the same airplane for approximately the same number of hours, one of them is involved in a fatal accident. The investigation shows that the probable cause was pilot error. Which one had the accident, pilot #1 or pilot #2?

Q-4. What is the reason for your answer(s)?

I've seen your answer to G200 and I disagree with you, here's why:

Q1: You and I both know that ideally the course and checkride are the same.
Q2: This is the rub. The term "better pilot" is open to debate. Better at what? Flying? Flying a jet? Flying a Challenger? Flying a Challenger 601? Better pilot is not specific enough to not run into the canned answer you have waiting. Some pilots are better at understanding systems. Some are better at actually flying the aircraft. Some are better at managing a crew. They both met the minimum criteria for passing a checkride, but one can be quantified as being "better" than the other. Same as being in school, some kids get an A, some get a C, both graduate.
Q3: Again, a general question. "A plane has an accident." Well, what kind of an accident? An accident caused by judgement, mechanical problem, unforseeable weather conditions....You'd have to know the specifics to make any sort of predicition regarding who is more likely to be involved in an accident, but it CAN be done.

Someone's body of experience may keep them from getting in an accident a more inexperienced person may not avoid. This goes to the issue of overall resume, is a company willing to hire a less experienced person if that pilot is willing to subsidize the company?

 

[Gulfstream 200]

Gulfstream200,

I think you sidestepped the questions because you really don't have any logical answers.

PFT is an economic issue and it has nothing to do with piloting skills or the lack thereof.

We all make mistakes but none of those mistakes have any real relationship to who signed the check.

Given the same level of experience and the same scenario, who paid for the training will have no verifiable impact on the outcome.

I think you're p_issing into the wind.

PFT has EVERYTHING to do with pilot skills.

Add to that personality traits, sketchy backgrounds, experience, education (or lack thereof)

There is always a reason a PFT'er couldn't get a real job. I dont care what it is, but you bet there's a reason!

NOBODY likes to pay for thier job, but some HAVE to just to get into the cockpit. I also seriously question companies who need pilots to subsidize thier operation...I myself would want to attract top talent. PFT operations simply dont! A heartbeat and a check.....thats all ya need. Check the boxes and off he flies with John Publics family in the back.

If we disagree, we disagree....so be it.

You fly with em, Im not.