Civil Air Patrol

[JediNein]

C.A.P. at AOPA

Hi guys!
For those heading out to Palm Springs for AOPA's expo, C.A.P. has two booths. I'll be working the outside aircraft display Friday and Saturday. Both aircraft and cars will see many C.A.P. members and cadets assisting with parking, crowd control, and general security of the event.
Fly SAFE!
Jedi Nein

 

[Chunk]

uhhhhh....okay

Not trying to bust balls here, but I am curious...

How is that in anyway germaine to the conversation?

 

[Typhoon1244]

[Typhoon1244 said:] "My squadron in Tennessee tried very hard to function as if it were a Reserve unit; uniform regulations were strictly enforced (both for cadets and senior members)."

See, that's exactly the point that many are trying to make. There's not a single thing that CAP does that can't be done just as effectively in a clean pair of Levis and a casual shirt.

Poor choice of words on my part. I probably should have said my unit tried very hard to function as if it were a regular college ROTC unit...which hopefully you hold to higher standards than you do the C.A.P. or the Boy Scouts.

As for your remark about Levis and casual shirts, I would argue that the same thing could be said about the active duty military. Does a guy flying a C-17 from Charleston to Tulsa really have to wear a pickle-suit and combat boots? What about us airline pilots? What's the point of us wearing ties, hats, and epaulets, to impress the flying public? They don't give a sh_t what we wear.

The C.A.P. was created at a time when there simply was nobody else available to fulfill those missions (SAR, border patrol, aerospace education, etc.). Now, seventy or eight years later, most hospitals and police departments have helicopters (or can get one quickly), the lion's share of the military is not away fighting Hitler, Tojo, and the Koreans. The C.A.P.'s SAR and border patrol missions are almost totally obsolete. If the C.A.P. went away tomorrow, you probably wouldn't be in much more or less trouble after crashing your Bonanza in the middle of nowhere.

This is important: of the cadets I knew in the C.A.P., about three-quarters spent some time on active duty...most of them are still on active duty. About a third of the cadets I knew became pilots, military and civilian. Some of us talk on occasion. We agree that we were far better prepared for our time in the service than our counterparts who'd never heard of the C.A.P. That was our first exposure to concepts like military discipline, customs, and courtesies.

What's my point? Simply this: the C.A.P.'s most important mission today is education. I would encourage any young man or woman who's interested in the military or aviation--or both--to check into C.A.P. membership. I would also encourage those of you who've already reached careers in aviation to check into membership. Who wouldn't enjoy inspiring and teaching tomorrow's soldiers and aviators? (Well, maybe Zeek...)

There's not a single thing that CAP does that can't be done just as effectively in a clean pair of Levis and a casual shirt.

Wrong. You can't teach young people about the service without uniforms. Period.

Is the C.A.P. perfect? Hel_ no! Does it deserve the ridicule it receives? To some degree, yes, but not entirely. There was one mission that my Army unit had to drop out of because some hotshot wrapped one of our UH-60'a around a gas pump at an FBO somewhere...and the other three were down for maintenance.

If I'd been the person in trouble that day, I'd sure have hoped there was some old fart in a 172 wearing tennis shoes looking for me!

Oh, by the way Zeek, since when is it inappropriate for active-duty military personnel to address civilians (regardless of how they're dressed) as "sir" or "ma'am?" That's what I was taught to do. Has that aspect of military courtesy changed since '96? Or are you just rude?

 

[TXCAP4228]

Negative opinions....

Asquared says:

See, that's exactly the point that many are trying to make. There's not a single thing that CAP does that can't be done just as effectively in a clean pair of Levis and a casual shirt (and maybe cold weather gear in the north) Any time and effort expended "trying to function as a reserve unit" or enforcing uniform regulations is just taking time and effort away from the SAR mission, and is making you the object of scorn and ridicule. Until you grasp that truth, and do something to change it, you're always going to wonder why the rest of the aviation world laughs when CAP is mentioned.

CAP existed BEFORE the US AIR FORCE existed. CAP has carried bombs during wartime. CAP pilots have attacked and sunk enemy ships.

Asqaured, you demonstarte in your comment a lack of a real understanding of the history of the organization. CAP is charted by the CONGRESS OF THE UNITED STATES to provide a number of services to the public. In order to fulfil these purposes, we hold the status as Auxiliary of the United states Air Force. Our national board consists of both active duty USAF officers and of CAP officers. CAP units even have USAF liason officers (this mean real live active duty USAF officers - almost all former pilots) assigned to them.

The SAR missions are only part of what we do, but I feel like I am still wasting the effort to explain any of this.

I have never claimed to be "active duty" and have certainly NEVER said I am a member of the armed services. In reading your comments, and Chunk's comments, it sounds like the only problem you (both) have with CAP is the wearing of the uniforms. If this is the case, I'd say your criticism of the organization as a whole is really very small.

Just because there are bad examples out there doesn't discredit the whole organization any more thayt Zeek's comments discredit the enitrity of the the Army and Naval Services.

Now, to Chunk:

1) Yes, CAP has been involved in counter drug activites - and no, not all of the members agree with these tactics. However, these were implemented at the request of OTHER FEDERAL AGENCIES, we just fly them. We don't make this stuff up and go out and do it on our own. In any case, I myself have a philisophical disagreement with looking for aircraft tailnumbers. But before we critize, let's all understand the whole story.

2) On fighting with the Air Force... this may reopen this whole issue again, but what the heck, I'm already way to deep into wasting my time to stop now. Your information is incomplete and not entirely accurate - was it a black eye to the CAP, yes. Does that detract from the people who are involved who still do their volunteer work everyday all over America? No, it does not.

3) Sponsoring a race car.... I don't like the idea - in fact I opposed it vigorously. HOWEVER, THE MILITARY SERVICES SPONSOR RACE CARS and CAP decided to do the same. Again, before you criticize, get some better information.

4) (this was from several posts back) Tax dollars. We can do Air SAR work (that is legally the obligation of the USAF and USCG according to public law) at a SMALL FRACTION of the cost of the cheapest aircraft available to the USAF or the USCG. Further, our pilot's volunteer their time for all of the training and proficiency, and are we are all unpaid (I guess we need a better union - joke ).

Let me ask you anti-uniform guys this: Would you make fun of and ridicule volunteer firefigthers at a local community fire station?

I'll say it again. CAP loses a couple of people every year during real missions - I wish this weren't true and we all train pretty hard to prevent it, but it happens. I don't care what you say or think about me, but are you seriously going to marginalize their sacrifice?

 

[STEVE CANYON]

Chunk:

"Two steps from goose-stepping and switching uniforms from cammies (which make a lot of sense for SAR ops...no really it does) to brown shirts."

The "brown shirt" reference was in bad taste. The cadet program has provided guidance to many youth who have went on to successful military and civillian aviation careers. I will not rescind my remark.


"If you can make the world a better place, do it any way you can! Hopefully, you can be the first in a new wave of CAP leadership that refocuses the organization on service and volunteerism and away from one of a para-miltary organization that has provided a haven for young neophytes that take more pleasure in making their "lower ranking peers" do pushups than they are learning about flying and finding downed aircraft."

SAR is only one of the three missions of the organization. The Cadet Programs, another of the three missions, primary goal is leadership training. SAR is only a part of their total program. I do agree the whole pushup thing is BS when it is used as hazing, not as physical fitness.

A Squared:

" I took all the required "how to search for downed airplanes" and "don’t molest the cadets" courses. "

Don't molest the cadet courses remark is in bad taste too. The Cadet Protection course was a requirement to make aware and prevent child molesters from entering the organization. And it did.

And as far as people finding it a haven to play soldier, I do disagree with that. That remark hasn't fallen on deaf ears.

A Square, I'm sorry your experience with the orgnaization was bad.

 

[A Squared]

>>>>>>As for your remark about Levis and casual shirts, I would argue that the same thing could be said about the active duty military. Does a guy flying a C-17 from Charleston to Tulsa really have to wear a pickle-suit and combat boots?

Probably not, but we're not debating the appropriateness of real military personnel wearing military uniforms. Personally, I don't see anything wrong with military personnel wearing military uniforms. I do have some reservations about civilians who get really excited about wearing military-like uniforms.


What about us airline pilots? What's the point of us wearing ties, hats, and epaulets, to impress the flying public?

I can't comment on that. When I fly, I wear a bright orange jumpsuit with the name of the local maximum-security penitentiary stenciled on the back. Freight dogs are allowed a certain freedom in choosing their wardrobe.

>>>>The C.A.P.'s SAR and border patrol missions are almost totally obsolete.

Not in Alaska, the SAR mission is very much alive.


>>>>>the C.A.P.'s most important mission today is education.

Have you ever considered that the CAP might be a lot more effective in that mission if it dropped all the costume wearing, saluting, pushup performing, "let’s pretend we’re soldiers" foolishness and concentrated on the *education* part? You think that there might be some kids out there that might like to learn a little about flying and would welcome an outlet for that desire, but are completely repelled by the hazing and saluting?


TXCAP........

>>>>>>Asqaured, (sic) you demonstarte (sic) in your comment a lack of a real understanding of the history of the organization.

No, the fact that I didn’t mention the CAP’s history doesn’t mean I am ignorant of it. You forget, I was a member for a while. I know about the 3 missions, I know about the CAP’s genesis. If I recall, "attacked and sunk enemy ships" isn’t quite accurate. I seem to recall it was more like a CAP Stinson dropped a 25 pound bomb on a u-boat which had run aground and couldn’t get away anyway, but I digress......

>>>>I have never claimed to be "active duty"

No, I never said you did, but one of your colleagues did earlier in this thread, hence my comment.


>>>>>>In reading your comments, and Chunk's comments, it sounds like the only problem you (both) have with CAP is the wearing of the uniforms.

No, if you go back and read my post, you’ll see that I stated that the costume fetish is probably harmless, by itself. However, it is indicative of a mentality that the CAP is probably better off without. The costume fetish is more a *symptom* of the problem, than the problem itself.


>>>>Let me ask you anti-uniform guys this: Would you make fun of and ridicule volunteer firefigthers at a local community fire station?

Well, I used to be on the volunteer fire department in the small town I grew up in. I don’t recall any uniforms of any kind, mostly it was just levi’s and tee-shirts. We just showed up when a neighbor’s house was on fire, and went home when it was out. No dressing up in costumes and pretending that we were something which we were not. That’s what volunteering is about.



>>>>>>>The Cadet Protection course was a requirement to make aware and prevent child molesters from entering the organization. And it did.

Hmmm, I always wondered why the CAP had the fingerprinting and the "cadet protection" course Did the CAP have problems with members molesting the cadets? they seem to have covered it up fairly well if that was the case.


regards

 

[Typhoon1244]

[BHave you ever considered that the CAP might be a lot more effective in that mission if it dropped all the costume wearing, saluting, pushup performing, "let’s pretend we’re soldiers" foolishness and concentrated on the *education* part? You think that there might be some kids out there that might like to learn a little about flying and would welcome an outlet for that desire, but are completely repelled by the hazing and saluting?[/B]

I--personally--never saw "hazing" in the C.A.P., and I find the reference insulting and repugnant.

As for the rest of your remark (quoted above), it's obvious you didn't read my last post. Go back and try again.

 

[Veronaut]

It seems readily apparent to me from reading these posts that there is a demand for an outlet for military wannabe's with uniform fetishes, who are completely repelled by saluting. I would have never guessed. Who knew that there is such an undercurrent of resentment towards saluting? What's next, handshakes?

As far as the wear of uniforms, I would suppose if you are considering joining the Air Force Auxillary, you should expect to wear their uniform. It seems obvious to me, & not totally unreasonable. I do question the wearing of cammies for a search & rescue organization, & cetainly disagree with there wear during public events such as parking duty at airshows. I will be the first to admit that seeing a little kid wearing cammies he doesn't fit into guiding me to a parking spot is humorous at the very least. Especially when the canteen slung on his hip is as big as he is!

While on the subject of uniforms, perhaps letting mere civilians wear military uniforms cheapens the meaning/signifcance of those uniforms. It is not at all unlike letting every "Ace" who sits in the back of an airplne wear a leather jacket (I'm thinking Air Force here, unsure about Navy), or letting every soldier in the Army wear an unearned black beret (what is the fascination with those beanie caps anyway?). Now if the CNO ever let corpsmen assigned to the FMF wear dress blues, I'd be pissed... But then again, going back to my original point, what do you expect from the official auxillary of the USAF? Not to wear their uniform? Here's an idea for all of you CAPer's, wear their uniform at least as well as they do.

Obviously the CAP (which again I'm a former member of & have recently considered rejoining) has a an image problem with a substantial portion of the community it purports to serve. I was totally unaware that their existed such an attitude of resentment/hostility towards the organization (other than the aforementioned "Dork Factor", but then posting on internet bulletin boards is pretty dorky). This is an image problem greater than that which sponsoring a race car can accomplish.

'naut

 

[Veronaut]

I can't help but sit here & laugh thinking about all of these civilians sitting around their house, watching "Top Gun" while wearing a Delta Force Commando t-shirt that they bought from "Soldier of Fortune" magazine & thinking, "Man, I'd join the Civil Air Patrol if I wasn't so darn completely repelled by saluting!"

 

[bobbysamd]

CAP saluting

We never saluted each other in the two squadrons to which I belonged. Rank earned in CAP signifies completion of levels of training and time in the organization. The highest grade that most members can earn through the training program is LTC, and that is a temporary rank pending completion of other requirements. Higher grades are awarded to Wing Commanders, regional staff and national staff. You can also jump grades, depending on your quals when you join CAP. I was a CFI when I joined and I was made a Captain. Our Squadron Commander joined at the same time I did. He got that position almost right away and was made Captain at the same time for that reason. I have heard of members who are "junior" "officers" who are jumped to Wing Commander and automatically become full-bird "Colonels."

What was freaky, sometimes, is if CAP members are in uniform on base. Then, lower-grade military personnel salute us. I am sure that is because they are trained to observe rank insignia and not look for distinctive CAP badging. You are wrong not to return the salute. Just the same, being saluted by real military personnel is exceedingly strange.

Members of the cadet program are taught to salute their seniors and senior members of CAP. You have to return the salute to promote their training. The CAP cadet program is quasi-military. Also, very successful in helping its members who aspire to a military career.

I agree 100% about wearing the CAP uniform properly. CAPpers have a great deal of contact with the Air Force. The Air Force is the CAP's patron. You discredit the organization by not wearing the uniform properly. Moreover, there are many forms of CAP uniform besides the AF-style blues.

 

[Fast8945]

If you are so against wearing military uniforms and what not, and want to learn , then what is the point with ROTC units around the country? CAP is basically for the person who does not whish to be in ROTC. I have done both, Navy JROTC, and CAP. I learned a lot from both, especially what I do not want to do. I know many people who did go on to be pilots and joined the military, from both branches. In fact, from ROTC, i know someone who is gaurding the president, and from CAP, someone went on to be a fighter pilot. I don't like him, but he is actually doing something for the country.

For you bickering about everything, then why don't you go out and inspire a young kid, and just maybe you might be a part of his future.

CAP was great for a while, but it quickly turned sour, but that was at my sqaudron.

In responce to people who are against joining CAP>> Lighten up a little, at least there are people are willing to not only risk their lives, but time and money to look for your butts when you crash!

 

[TXCAP4228]

Re: CAP saluting

I agree 100% about wearing the CAP uniform properly. CAPpers have a great deal of contact with the Air Force. The Air Force is the CAP's patron. You discredit the organization by not wearing the uniform properly.

I agree completely. It is a privilege to wear the same uniform, and good units really take that seriously.

 

[TXCAP4228]

In responce to people who are against joining CAP>> Lighten up a little, at least there are people are willing to not only risk their lives, but time and money to look for your butts when you crash!

Thanks, Fast.

 

[Jeff G]

[BHmmm, I always wondered why the CAP had the fingerprinting and the "cadet protection" course Did the CAP have problems with members molesting the cadets? they seem to have covered it up fairly well if that was the case.[/B]

I don't recall the CAP having a major problem with this, but at the time the cadet protection course was mandated, the Boy Scouts were having a tough time. I think the course was intended to avoid going through the same thing that scouting groups were going through at the time. It's not a bad idea.

 

[TXCAP4228]

CPPT

I don't recall the CAP having a major problem with this, but at the time the cadet protection course was mandated, the Boy Scouts were having a tough time. I think the course was intended to avoid going through the same thing that scouting groups were going through at the time. It's not a bad idea.

CAP instituted this Cadet Protection Program Training as a requirement for all CAP adult (senior) members in the 80's. There have never been an issues, mostly because we have very high quality adults involved (I'm not casting aspersions on organizations like scouting or religious groups).

New revisions to the program require that cadets themselves over the age of 18 also receive the same training.

In addition to the CPPT, all adult (Senior Member) CAP applicants undergo fingerprinting and background checks before their membership is approved.

Contrary to many of the negative opinons posted in this thread, this really is a fantastic organization.

 

[Chunk]

It is not at all unlike letting every "Ace" who sits in the back of an airplne wear a leather jacket (I'm thinking Air Force here, unsure about Navy), ........


(other than the aforementioned "Dork Factor", but then posting on internet bulletin boards is pretty dorky). 'naut

WOAH! Hold on there....who are you calling a dork!

BTW....the issued leather jacket (yes the Navy issued me one even though I was a "backseat ACE" as you call it) is a heritage and morale thing. Oh yeah....Marines wear 'em too, jarhead!

Chunk

 

[Chunk]

Or as an alternative....

We could all watch this over and over and over...

http://www.rathergood.com/vikings/

hypnotic, isn't it?

 

[A Squared]

Veronaut,

you’ve missed my point about the saluting, apparently intentionally. I’m not saying as you keep suggesting, that saluting is the only thing keeping people away. It’s the whole "let’s pretend we’re in the military when really we’re not" Saluting is an element of that, as is the uniforms and formations and silly, meaningless rank.

You and others have missed my point about attracting entrants into the cadet program. OK I’ll try again: Everyone seems to be in agreement that aerospace education for young people is one of the most, if not *the* most important functions of CAP. You want to get young people involved in something educational, give them exposure to aviation, have them learn and accomplish things that help them to realize their potential, give then something constructive to participate in instead of Nintendo and dope smoking........ right?????? So if that’s true, presumably you would wish to reach the greatest number of young people, right? All in agreement so far?

All right, now stand up in front of a group of junior high and high school kids and ask how many want to learn about airplanes, fly in airplanes and even learn to fly airplanes. You’re probably going to get a pretty enthusiastic response from a fair number of them.

Ok, now ask that same group of kids how many want to dress up in fake military uniforms and pretend that they’re soldiers. I’d be willing to bet any sum of money you’d care to name that you’re going to get fewer hands raised for the second question, a lot fewer. So; if the aerospace education is so vitally important, why wouldn’t you want to have the larger group of participants rather than the smaller group of participants? Why is there such insistence that uniforms and standing formation is an inseparable part of Aerospace education. Really, what does wearing a fake military uniform have to do with learning about airplanes?


TXCAP,

>>>>>I'll say it again. CAP loses a couple of people every year during real missions

yeah, I heard you the first time, but since you keep bringing it up, I thought I’d do a little digging into this subject. I took a look at the NTSB records for CAP accidents back through 1998. The first thing I noticed were the abundance of accidents which could be classified as "smacking a perfectly good airplane into a perfectly good runway under benign weather conditions, for no apparent reason other than ineptitude" I’m not sure that is an official NTSB accident classification, but they should consider it. Taxiing into things seemed to be a popular activity also. A CAP 172 crashed because a control cable corroded all the way through. (what do they look at on those 100 hour inspections?)

There were some more serious accidents: 2 CAP planes crashed in the mountains on non-mission proficiency flights killing all aboard. A CAP plane on a proficiency flight stalled and spun in while pulling up after a low pass over a relatives house. It was noted that this was common behavior for this pilot. All on board died. A CAP plane stalled and spun in while pulling up from a low pass over a runway. All on board died. Interestingly, the pilot tested positive for a substantial amount of opiates and that was listed as a factor in the accident.

Frankly, none of those sound like "real missions" to me. In that (almost) 5 year period, there was only one fatal crash on a "real mission", a CAP plane that crashed this year while circling at 120-150ft agl., looking for marijuana plants. This is a long, long way from losing "a couple of persons every year during real missions". It would appear that more CAP members lose their lives in buzz-jobs gone bad, than lose their lives on actual missions.

regards

 

[TXCAP4228]

A Squared,

I congratulate you on your ability to search through NTSB databases. I didn't say everyone who died was in an airplane or even on an aircrew.

You have not refuted anything I said.

However, let's talk about training accidents since you bring that up. You want to make fun of the F18 pilots who died in a training accident last week?

I can see however that you're content to marginalize the people who died.

Live with that.

 

[A Squared]

>>>>>You have not refuted anything I said.

Hmmm, I've shown that the written record of accidents does not support your statements. Might I ask what "refute" means to you?

>>>>>>I didn't say everyone who died was in an airplane or even on an aircrew.

OK then, what are you saying?

>>>>>>You want to make fun of the F18 pilots who died in a training accident last week?

Not that it's relevant at all, but no, I don't want to make fun of them. Neither am I making fun of the CAP people who died. if you'll go back and read my post for comprehension, you will see that I repeated the facts of the fatal accidents as I read them.

>>>>>I can see however that you're content to marginalize the people who died.

No, again you're trying to insinuate something which is not there. Aside from repeating the facts which the NTSB reports, I made 2 factual observations: 1) Only one out of the five fatal accidents was a mission. That's a fact and it directly addresses the inaccuracy of your statement. 2) More CAP members were killed in buzz-jobs than on missions from 1998 to today. That also is factual. If those 2 facts make you uncomfortable, perhaps you should direct your attention to the Civil Air Patrol, instead of me.

I think that most will agree that there's nothing heroic or sacrificial about killing yourself and your passengers doing an unnecessary buzz job, particularly while doped up on morphine.


I will confess to being derisive about the abundence of non-fatal landing accidents. In the heirarchy of sins, I would imagine that is a fairly insignificant one.


regards