Civil Air Patrol

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what you should do is post this thread under military- since all you wanna bees think you are--

Hey zeek,

If the military flying is so great, how come you're not doing it full time? Do all of us commercial pilots a favor and go back to your Nomex full time. What a Windbag!

 

[Clearsky]

Anything administered by the government has waste. I'm sure there are tax dollar savings by using volunteers, otherwise, the Air Force might have canned the whole program years ago. If the Air Force was doing all the SAR it would cost significanly more money and divert resources from other missions.

I have no doubt that there are some badly run squadrons out there such as A Squared describes. There are also alot of good folks and squadrons.

As for the one poster, I'm just surprised that there are so many profesionals such as lawyers, doctors, financial analysts, former military, and pilots that are "military wannabes". Thank God most folks in the military don't act like you.

 

[TXCAP4228]

Now thats kinda funny- My big brother is going to beat you up- well - Txcap- I also went to Airborne school Delta company Aug -90-(no escape form the rock) at beautiful Fort Benning Georgia- followed by Ranger School and two trips thru the Swamp- and three weeks in the gulog-- Ask your buddy about Mountain phase -swamp phase Eglin - Desert phase in Utah- and how fun a recycle is- and time in the gulog--- But then again you wouldn't know anything about that- "Rangers Lead the Way"- Z

Wow, zeek, that's compelling. Once again, you miss the point. I get the feeling I am wasting my time... but I'll go through this again for you. The reason I bring up the Airborne guy is to demonstrate that many people for whom you SHOULD have respect also participate in this organization. I mean, I could list 5 or 6 guys who are serious former military (and 2 current military) who are very involved in my squadron.

I'll also point out that you just flat failed to respond to anything else I said.

I am wasting my time even attempting to reason with you.

 

[Typhoon1244]

I am wasting my time even attempting to reason with [Zeek].

He's a rotor-head...all that vibration kills brain cells. And if you didn't have that many to begin with...

No, I don't really mean that. I've known many current and former Army helo guys (and gals). They are, for the most part, an exceptionally talented bunch, particularly the combat and medevac guys. It takes a lot of guts to fly into harms way at low altitude in a machine with no ejection seat. I've also known clowns like Zeek. For us enlisted maint. guys, they were the worst officers to work for, real pains in the as_. You just had to grin and bear it, and hope they'd spend the day in their office masterbating in front of their "I-love-me" wall and stay away from the hangar.

Now, as for the C.A.P. Somebody previously said the "dork factor" is very high. I'd be the first to agree. As I've said repeatedly, in every organization , there are those who take their responsibilities seriously, and those who don't. My squadron in Tennessee tried very hard to function as if it were a Reserve unit; uniform regulations were strictly enforced (both for cadets and senior members) and we took part in a number of successful search-and-rescue missions.

If you're thinking of joining, and the squadron you visit doesn't impress you at the start, don't give up. Try finding another squadron.

DO NOT buy into Zeek's crap about "woulda-coulda-shouldas." My squadron's active roster included five Vietnam vets (three Rangers, a UH-1 medevac pilot, and a former F-4 driver with one MiG-17 under his belt). These are guys who fought the same battles Zeek did, and now they've brought their talents to the C.A.P.'s SAR and education missions. These men deserve respect...not clowns like Zeek.

 

[Typhoon1244]

Zeek, you're army, that says everything, you couldn't get into a real service.

Hey now, wait a minute...!

(See, Zeek? You've got them assuming everybody in the U.S. Army is a loser like you. Lay off before you ruin all our reputations!)

 

[Chunk]

A few more points....

Talking about this thread with a friend of mine reminded me of a few other points about CAP....

1. Operation Snoop-on-Local-Airport-Plane-writing-down-N numbers

Sending cadets around airports to report "suspiscous" aircraft. (for example...vegetation in the back...any sign of landing soft field...really devious stuff!)

Two steps from goose-stepping and switching uniforms from cammies (which make a lot of sense for SAR ops...no really it does) to brown shirts.

Since they couldn't get into hangars, they only snooped planes that are tied down outside....I guess smugglers never use a hangar!

2. Fighting with the USAF (the sponsoring agency) and refusing to turn over their books, forcing the raid of National HQ by feds (Treasury agents, IIRC). Taking USAF to court! Smart....reeeeaalll smart.


3. Sponsoring a racing team....uhhhh need I say more?

Wanna do something to combine aviation with helping your fellow man? Try any of the medical airlift organizations...AirLifeline, etc. etc. etc. OR Young Eagles if you want to help young people get into aviation. If you're really into CAP...go for it. Just don't expect me to pay for it!

Chunk

 

[STEVE CANYON]

To Zeek and Chunk: Bite Me

To All Others With a Genuine Interest:

Just a couple references of what CAP has done. First, They were a major part of the search for the missing A-10 in Colorado a few years ago. Second, fufilling their Civil Defense functions in the aftermath of 9/11.

In my 18 years as a member, I have worked with both ex and retired military, airline professionals, and other professionals outside the aviation industry. As a former cadet, the organization was my first exposure to a professional aviation organization.

As far as sponsoring the race car team.........I do question that.

 

[A Squared]

To Zeek and Chunk: Bite Me

Yeah, that's an inteligent response. I'm not going to try to defend Zeek, as he's obviously trying to be antagonistic, but Chunk has some real observations about some of the things wrong with the organization and why so many people look down on it. Maybe you ought to listen to what people are saying about CAP instead of hurling insults. In fact Chunk hit on one of the fundamental defects of the organization. It is filled with people who consider themselves "active duty", who aparently get some pathetic fulfilment from dressing up in faux military costumes, who really think thier make believe "rank" is meaningful.

Now, these perversions, fetishes, if you will, are probably harmless by themselves, but they are indicative of persons with pretty profound emotional shortcomings. Unfortunately, there are a lot of those in CAP. The fact that they are probably the most visible segment of CAP tends to obscure the normal folks there who are just trying to help out with the SAR mission.

You want to make a difference in CAP? you want CAP to get some respect? Here's how:

Get rid of the fake uniforms, get rid of the phony rank, stop prancing around saluting each other, get out of the "drug interdiction" racket, get rid of the race car. I think that you'll find that CAP will lose a lot of it's appeal for the real losers and they will drift off somewhere else. Hopefully, you'll be left with a membership of more balanced individuals who are interested in aviation and search and rescue.


Typhoon:

>>>>>>My squadron in Tennessee tried very hard to function as if it were a Reserve unit; uniform regulations were strictly enforced (both for cadets and senior members)

See, that's exactly the point that many are trying to make. There's not a single thing that CAP does that can't be done just as effectively in a clean pair of Levis and a casual shirt (and maybe cold weather gear in the north) Any time and effort expended "trying to function as a reserve unit" or enforcing uniform regulations is just taking time and effort away from the SAR mission, and is making you the object of scorn and ridicule. Until you grasp that truth, and do something to change it, you're always going to wonder why the rest of the aviation world laughs when CAP is mentioned.

regards

 

[Veronaut]

"My call tonight is for every American to commit at least two years -- 4,000 hours over the rest of your lifetime -- to the service of your neighbors and your nation. (Applause.) Many are already serving, and I thank you." President George W. Bush in the Sate of the Union Speech January, 2002.

If you are heeding the call to service of your neighbors & your nation, I too thank you. However you are doing it, in the Armed Forces, Civil Air Patrol, Boy Scouts, Red Cross, volunteer fire department, etc., you are answering the call to service, & thank God there are Americans like you willing to do their part. I mean that sincerely.

As far as calling civilians "Sir" or "Ma'am", I wasn't aware that that has gone out of vogue for military personnel. It's probably gone the way of "By your leave, Sir/Ma'am."

There is no question that a service organization must be accountable to not only it's members, but the people it serves. Hopefully discussions like this one won't deter good people from volunteering for organizations that could use their help.

'naut

 

[Chunk]

ASquared,

Thanks for backing me up.


Steve Canyon,

Go reread my posts versus Zeeks'....you will see a difference.


Zeek,

I'm embarrassed to to be grouped with you. You are an embarrassment to military aviation.


Veronaut,

If you can make the world a better place, do it any way you can! Hopefully, you can be the first in a new wave of CAP leadership that refocuses the organization on service and volunteerism and away from one of a para-miltary organization that has provided a haven for young neophytes that take more pleasure in making their "lower ranking peers" do pushups than they are learning about flying and finding downed aircraft.


Chunk

 

[JediNein]

C.A.P. at AOPA

Hi guys!
For those heading out to Palm Springs for AOPA's expo, C.A.P. has two booths. I'll be working the outside aircraft display Friday and Saturday. Both aircraft and cars will see many C.A.P. members and cadets assisting with parking, crowd control, and general security of the event.
Fly SAFE!
Jedi Nein

 

[Chunk]

uhhhhh....okay

Not trying to bust balls here, but I am curious...

How is that in anyway germaine to the conversation?

 

[Typhoon1244]

[Typhoon1244 said:] "My squadron in Tennessee tried very hard to function as if it were a Reserve unit; uniform regulations were strictly enforced (both for cadets and senior members)."

See, that's exactly the point that many are trying to make. There's not a single thing that CAP does that can't be done just as effectively in a clean pair of Levis and a casual shirt.

Poor choice of words on my part. I probably should have said my unit tried very hard to function as if it were a regular college ROTC unit...which hopefully you hold to higher standards than you do the C.A.P. or the Boy Scouts.

As for your remark about Levis and casual shirts, I would argue that the same thing could be said about the active duty military. Does a guy flying a C-17 from Charleston to Tulsa really have to wear a pickle-suit and combat boots? What about us airline pilots? What's the point of us wearing ties, hats, and epaulets, to impress the flying public? They don't give a sh_t what we wear.

The C.A.P. was created at a time when there simply was nobody else available to fulfill those missions (SAR, border patrol, aerospace education, etc.). Now, seventy or eight years later, most hospitals and police departments have helicopters (or can get one quickly), the lion's share of the military is not away fighting Hitler, Tojo, and the Koreans. The C.A.P.'s SAR and border patrol missions are almost totally obsolete. If the C.A.P. went away tomorrow, you probably wouldn't be in much more or less trouble after crashing your Bonanza in the middle of nowhere.

This is important: of the cadets I knew in the C.A.P., about three-quarters spent some time on active duty...most of them are still on active duty. About a third of the cadets I knew became pilots, military and civilian. Some of us talk on occasion. We agree that we were far better prepared for our time in the service than our counterparts who'd never heard of the C.A.P. That was our first exposure to concepts like military discipline, customs, and courtesies.

What's my point? Simply this: the C.A.P.'s most important mission today is education. I would encourage any young man or woman who's interested in the military or aviation--or both--to check into C.A.P. membership. I would also encourage those of you who've already reached careers in aviation to check into membership. Who wouldn't enjoy inspiring and teaching tomorrow's soldiers and aviators? (Well, maybe Zeek...)

There's not a single thing that CAP does that can't be done just as effectively in a clean pair of Levis and a casual shirt.

Wrong. You can't teach young people about the service without uniforms. Period.

Is the C.A.P. perfect? Hel_ no! Does it deserve the ridicule it receives? To some degree, yes, but not entirely. There was one mission that my Army unit had to drop out of because some hotshot wrapped one of our UH-60'a around a gas pump at an FBO somewhere...and the other three were down for maintenance.

If I'd been the person in trouble that day, I'd sure have hoped there was some old fart in a 172 wearing tennis shoes looking for me!

Oh, by the way Zeek, since when is it inappropriate for active-duty military personnel to address civilians (regardless of how they're dressed) as "sir" or "ma'am?" That's what I was taught to do. Has that aspect of military courtesy changed since '96? Or are you just rude?

 

[TXCAP4228]

Negative opinions....

Asquared says:

See, that's exactly the point that many are trying to make. There's not a single thing that CAP does that can't be done just as effectively in a clean pair of Levis and a casual shirt (and maybe cold weather gear in the north) Any time and effort expended "trying to function as a reserve unit" or enforcing uniform regulations is just taking time and effort away from the SAR mission, and is making you the object of scorn and ridicule. Until you grasp that truth, and do something to change it, you're always going to wonder why the rest of the aviation world laughs when CAP is mentioned.

CAP existed BEFORE the US AIR FORCE existed. CAP has carried bombs during wartime. CAP pilots have attacked and sunk enemy ships.

Asqaured, you demonstarte in your comment a lack of a real understanding of the history of the organization. CAP is charted by the CONGRESS OF THE UNITED STATES to provide a number of services to the public. In order to fulfil these purposes, we hold the status as Auxiliary of the United states Air Force. Our national board consists of both active duty USAF officers and of CAP officers. CAP units even have USAF liason officers (this mean real live active duty USAF officers - almost all former pilots) assigned to them.

The SAR missions are only part of what we do, but I feel like I am still wasting the effort to explain any of this.

I have never claimed to be "active duty" and have certainly NEVER said I am a member of the armed services. In reading your comments, and Chunk's comments, it sounds like the only problem you (both) have with CAP is the wearing of the uniforms. If this is the case, I'd say your criticism of the organization as a whole is really very small.

Just because there are bad examples out there doesn't discredit the whole organization any more thayt Zeek's comments discredit the enitrity of the the Army and Naval Services.

Now, to Chunk:

1) Yes, CAP has been involved in counter drug activites - and no, not all of the members agree with these tactics. However, these were implemented at the request of OTHER FEDERAL AGENCIES, we just fly them. We don't make this stuff up and go out and do it on our own. In any case, I myself have a philisophical disagreement with looking for aircraft tailnumbers. But before we critize, let's all understand the whole story.

2) On fighting with the Air Force... this may reopen this whole issue again, but what the heck, I'm already way to deep into wasting my time to stop now. Your information is incomplete and not entirely accurate - was it a black eye to the CAP, yes. Does that detract from the people who are involved who still do their volunteer work everyday all over America? No, it does not.

3) Sponsoring a race car.... I don't like the idea - in fact I opposed it vigorously. HOWEVER, THE MILITARY SERVICES SPONSOR RACE CARS and CAP decided to do the same. Again, before you criticize, get some better information.

4) (this was from several posts back) Tax dollars. We can do Air SAR work (that is legally the obligation of the USAF and USCG according to public law) at a SMALL FRACTION of the cost of the cheapest aircraft available to the USAF or the USCG. Further, our pilot's volunteer their time for all of the training and proficiency, and are we are all unpaid (I guess we need a better union - joke ).

Let me ask you anti-uniform guys this: Would you make fun of and ridicule volunteer firefigthers at a local community fire station?

I'll say it again. CAP loses a couple of people every year during real missions - I wish this weren't true and we all train pretty hard to prevent it, but it happens. I don't care what you say or think about me, but are you seriously going to marginalize their sacrifice?

 

[STEVE CANYON]

Chunk:

"Two steps from goose-stepping and switching uniforms from cammies (which make a lot of sense for SAR ops...no really it does) to brown shirts."

The "brown shirt" reference was in bad taste. The cadet program has provided guidance to many youth who have went on to successful military and civillian aviation careers. I will not rescind my remark.


"If you can make the world a better place, do it any way you can! Hopefully, you can be the first in a new wave of CAP leadership that refocuses the organization on service and volunteerism and away from one of a para-miltary organization that has provided a haven for young neophytes that take more pleasure in making their "lower ranking peers" do pushups than they are learning about flying and finding downed aircraft."

SAR is only one of the three missions of the organization. The Cadet Programs, another of the three missions, primary goal is leadership training. SAR is only a part of their total program. I do agree the whole pushup thing is BS when it is used as hazing, not as physical fitness.

A Squared:

" I took all the required "how to search for downed airplanes" and "don’t molest the cadets" courses. "

Don't molest the cadet courses remark is in bad taste too. The Cadet Protection course was a requirement to make aware and prevent child molesters from entering the organization. And it did.

And as far as people finding it a haven to play soldier, I do disagree with that. That remark hasn't fallen on deaf ears.

A Square, I'm sorry your experience with the orgnaization was bad.