Civil Air Patrol

[alvin]

Well I turned in my paperwork last night...

Thanks to everyone (most everyone) that posted here and to my PM's last week looking for info. (Bobbysamd, Typhoon1244, Hercdrvr)

I've joined a new composite squadron, so we are starting from scratch and I get to help shape the personality of the unit. Out of the 12 senior members we have, I am the 3rd pilot. I've already met some great people, Doctors, lawyers, preachers, and teachers....

To Zeek......I did my time as a ground pounder and armor crew. I played football, but was also in the band, and choir, Oh my god, I've even been in a barbershop quartet and community theatre as an adult.. I'm even one of "management types" that gets to tell lots of people what to do. I'm too old to go back into the NG or Res, I love to fly and I love to share my love of flight with the kids. I've got 25 yrs of life experience since college and It's my turn to give some back. I will take my volunteer duty very serious. And if you should happen to need the CAP’s services one day, you better hope It's me that comes, because I will get you out no matter what your mouth runs.. SO fire at me if you can climb out of your hole.


Alvin

 

[TXCAP4228]

JimNTexas wrote:

I've got nothing against the CAP, but as an old retired USAF fart, I'd be very embarressed to be seen with most CAP adult members when they are in uniform. Very few of them meet the very high dress, appearance, and fittness standards of the active force.

Jim, some of us young current CAP farts are also embarassed to be seen around CAP members who reflect poorly on their uniforms - and on their organization.

Just so you know, the CAP equivalent to 35-10 is CAPR 39-1. We have to meet grooming, weight and appearance standards to wear the USAF style uniform. For those of us that do - ex-military or not - we try to take it very seriously.

Do me a favor, next time you see a CAP officer somewhere who is not wearing the uniform to your standards, say something to them and then email me their name - I'll take care of that problem personally.

Zeke, every organization has high speed people and low speed people - and what I said to JimNTexas goes for you too - if you see somebody that doesn't meet the standards, let me know. NOW, I'll say to you that when you acknowledge that you're a member of the armed services, your comments in this public forum also represent the service. Try to keep that in mind next time you decide to say something offensive.

Kind of hard to set a good example when you're showing your a$$.

 

[XJAVRO]

zeek,

you're army, that says everything, you couldn't get into a real service.

I've been a member of CAP for 10 years, and I'm a former military pilot. Most of us in my wing are former military, and or current airline pilots. Yes, there are some wannabes, but most of us have been there.

We provide a great service for the tax payer. it costs us $35 an hour to run a SAR mission per acft, it costs the USAF $2500 an hour which is more cost effective. We provide many other services you don't know about, and we do this on our own time, and spend our own money.

next time you see the old guy in the flightsuit maybe you should thank him, and not laugh at him.

 

[B-J-J Fighter]

I dont mean to be offensive but from what Ive seen of CAP zeek hit the nail on the head.

 

[wil]

Well "Z" I'm glad to see you made the educational req. for Army flight training- Highschool Diploma! You are a shining example of the "one". Every organization has that "one" goof, idiot, a-hole, and you are that one. I for one was not able to serve due to injuries sustained from a car accident in college(plates and screws in the head and hip) but I was able to go the civilian route to pursue a flying career. And, I would like help kids and society in my spare time- should I not join? Am I now a wannabe too? I think you had better ratchet down that ego before life does it for you!! God bless and fly safe- Wil

 

[Clearsky]

Members don't have a choice concerning the uniform. They certainly don't sign up for the "uniform".

The uniform is determined by the Air Force. I didn't like the similiar uniform or the whole saluting thing.

I'm not sure how anyone can be against volunteer work especially because of a "uniform" issue.

 

[Chunk]

Be considered "active duty" was also very patriotic. Another good thing was talking to younger kids, 4-10, who actually thought you were in the military.

I think this about sums up what bothers a lot of folks about CAP. "Being considered active duty" and "talking to younger kids who thought you were in the military"....guess what...YOU ARE NOT IN THE MILITARY! The C in CAP stands for CIVIL.

I am glad the CAP exists to find errant ELTs and the saves they get. Have fun and thanks for volunteering your time. I do not think they should get ONE FRIGGIN' TAXDOLLAR. I was a cadet as a teenager and the waste was blatant and obvious, even to a 15-yr old.

Is there a significant dork factor? I don't think anyone is going to argue against that. Should they be wearing the uniform? If the AF says so, the dude fits in it, go for it. Don't expect anyone but the uninformed to give you the same respect as active duty folks get (and should get).

And stop spending my taxdollars!

Chunk

 

[Typhoon1244]

Zeek,

I was in CAP as a cadet from '84 to '90. (In '87 I helped locate the remains of a C-141 crew that smashed into a ridge in east Tennessee.) I graduated from college in '93, joined the Army, got out in '96, went to FlightSafety, then an airline. Don't tell me what wars I did or didn't want to go to. I missed them altogether.

I've never flown a 172RG, and I've never worn tennis shoes with any uniform (with the exception of Army PT's).

An officer is more than just the missions he's performed, he's also a person with flaws and virtues. I'm sure you did many very heroic, very impressive things during your Army service. The fact that you're also an as_hole prevents most of us from giving you the respect you would otherwise deserve.

You've made it very clear what you are, a dumb jock who reached his peak on a football field in high school...and that's all you'll ever be. Please, stop posting now. You're an embarassment to the Army I hold so dear.

 

[TXCAP4228]

CAP

Zeek, you don't get it but that's ok. I can live with that.

1) CAP memebers do not get paid for what they do, they're all volunteers - and ALL OF THEM have other full time jobs.

2) I will not get into a comparison of the CAP vs. the Military, but CAP carried bombs and sank submarines during WW2, CAP towed aerial gunnery targets for the Army Air Corps and the USAF, CAP currently flies something like 85% of inland SAR flight hours in the United States.

3) CAP flies in support of The DEA, The US Customs Service and other Federal Agencies in following with MOU's.

4) CAP members care very deeply about their country and have tried to find a way to serve in spite of the fact that some of the never spent time in the military. I say some, because many of them did spend time in the miltary.

5) CAP members have great respect for what memebers of the armed forces do.

6) I hesitate to bring this up, but every year, a small number of CAP members die during actual SAR operations and other active CAP missions. These CAP members gave their lives in the service of their country every bit as much as the F18 pilots who were recently lost in training did - and the CAP members were unpaid volunteers. Zeke, how dare you belittle either sacrifice.

Zeke, I don't mind you saying anything you want to me. I'll still get out of bed at 2am when the Air Force (yep, that's who calls me) calls and says they need me to put together a team to go find somebody. You're being an a$$. Shut up, sir.

Alternatively, if you insist on going on, I've got an ex Airborne Ranger in my CAP squadron with combat jumps - why don't you come by and say these things to him?

 

[A Squared]

Yeah, there’s some good points about CAP. I was a member way back, but quit in disgust and frustration. There are reasons that "Civil Air Patrol" is often the punch line to a derisive joke.

I joined because I wanted to get involved in the SAR missions. I’d seen a number of occasions when a plane went missing and I’d wished that there was something I could do to assist the effort. CAP seemed like the logical choice, right? I joined the nearest squadron, went to every meeting. At the first opportunity, I took all the required "how to search for downed airplanes" and "don’t molest the cadets" courses. (The courses themselves were a joke, they essentially sat you down in a room and gave you all the answers to the tests) Anyway, I got all of the administrative requirements straightened out, and I had more than enough experience already to meet all of the requirements for any aircraft in the squadron. Ought to be a snap to get checked out in a 172, right? Wrong. I went down the list if authorized instructors. Contacted them in person, introduced myself if I didn’t already know them, and asked about getting checked out in the 172. One by one, as I went down the list, I got the same story, can’t do it, too busy, etc. No "maybe in 2 weeks" , no "I can’t do it, but maybe Joe over there can" And all the while many of them were on the aircraft schedule for "proficiency" flights. Seems they had enough time to go flying themselves......... After I’d gone thorough the entire list of instructors, I finally came to the realization that these guys had no interest in checking out new pilots.

Yeah, the CAP *could* be a good organization, but you can count me among those who hold it in fairly low regard. A few other *highlights* that have contributed to form opinion of CAP:

Seeing members in public (grocery store) in full uniform on days when I knew there was no meeting, or any official activity which would require a uniform.

Sitting in meetings listening to the squadron commander yabber on about how much better, safer, skilled, etc we (CAP) were than the general flying public, the 135 operators, other CAP squadrons, ect. And this from a pilot of rather ordinary abilities and at least one accident in her past.

A friend of mine joined a CAP squadron, he was told that he "would never fly the Beaver". Never mind that this individual probably had more flight experience than any 3 members of that squadron. Never mind that he had thousands of hours of PIC time in radial engined taildraggers like the Beech 18 and C-46 which make the Beaver look like a **CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED**cat. Never mind that he had been flying the Beaver at another CAP squadron. My friend has a higher tolerance for this kind of stupidity than do I, and he is still with CAP. More power to him.

Every year, the local squadron flies one of the Beavers to Oshkosh and back. Supposedly it’s a "public relations" effort, really it’s just a trip to Oshkosh for a few members. The operating costs alone to fly the Beaver from Anchorage to Oskosh and back is probably $7000 to $10,000, to say nothing of per-diem for the vacationers. Never mind that during this 3-4 week vacation the beaver isn’t available for actual SAR missions. Is this really an effective use of the taxpayers’ dollars? Of course this waste pales in comparison to spending in excess of a million dollars to sponsor a race car.

I dunno, perhaps I should have been more persistent, kept my eye on the goal and put up with the idiots. The thing is, there’s a lot of people like me that joined and just left in disgust. Those of you who are still in the CAP and think it’s a worthwhile organization, great, but realize when you encounter a person like zeek that there’s very real reasons that many hold the CAP in contempt. Instead of denying that it’s true, perhaps you could work from within to improve CAP’s image. I’ll give you a hint though, sponsoring a NASCAR team isn’t helping.

DOT_AK,

For what it’s worth, if you’re in Anchorage, I’ve been told that the Elmendorf and Birchwood squadrons are better than the Polaris Squadron at Merrill. My experience was with the Polaris Squadron.

 

[inline]

what you should do is post this thread under military- since all you wanna bees think you are--

Hey zeek,

If the military flying is so great, how come you're not doing it full time? Do all of us commercial pilots a favor and go back to your Nomex full time. What a Windbag!

 

[Clearsky]

Anything administered by the government has waste. I'm sure there are tax dollar savings by using volunteers, otherwise, the Air Force might have canned the whole program years ago. If the Air Force was doing all the SAR it would cost significanly more money and divert resources from other missions.

I have no doubt that there are some badly run squadrons out there such as A Squared describes. There are also alot of good folks and squadrons.

As for the one poster, I'm just surprised that there are so many profesionals such as lawyers, doctors, financial analysts, former military, and pilots that are "military wannabes". Thank God most folks in the military don't act like you.

 

[TXCAP4228]

Now thats kinda funny- My big brother is going to beat you up- well - Txcap- I also went to Airborne school Delta company Aug -90-(no escape form the rock) at beautiful Fort Benning Georgia- followed by Ranger School and two trips thru the Swamp- and three weeks in the gulog-- Ask your buddy about Mountain phase -swamp phase Eglin - Desert phase in Utah- and how fun a recycle is- and time in the gulog--- But then again you wouldn't know anything about that- "Rangers Lead the Way"- Z

Wow, zeek, that's compelling. Once again, you miss the point. I get the feeling I am wasting my time... but I'll go through this again for you. The reason I bring up the Airborne guy is to demonstrate that many people for whom you SHOULD have respect also participate in this organization. I mean, I could list 5 or 6 guys who are serious former military (and 2 current military) who are very involved in my squadron.

I'll also point out that you just flat failed to respond to anything else I said.

I am wasting my time even attempting to reason with you.

 

[Typhoon1244]

I am wasting my time even attempting to reason with [Zeek].

He's a rotor-head...all that vibration kills brain cells. And if you didn't have that many to begin with...

No, I don't really mean that. I've known many current and former Army helo guys (and gals). They are, for the most part, an exceptionally talented bunch, particularly the combat and medevac guys. It takes a lot of guts to fly into harms way at low altitude in a machine with no ejection seat. I've also known clowns like Zeek. For us enlisted maint. guys, they were the worst officers to work for, real pains in the as_. You just had to grin and bear it, and hope they'd spend the day in their office masterbating in front of their "I-love-me" wall and stay away from the hangar.

Now, as for the C.A.P. Somebody previously said the "dork factor" is very high. I'd be the first to agree. As I've said repeatedly, in every organization , there are those who take their responsibilities seriously, and those who don't. My squadron in Tennessee tried very hard to function as if it were a Reserve unit; uniform regulations were strictly enforced (both for cadets and senior members) and we took part in a number of successful search-and-rescue missions.

If you're thinking of joining, and the squadron you visit doesn't impress you at the start, don't give up. Try finding another squadron.

DO NOT buy into Zeek's crap about "woulda-coulda-shouldas." My squadron's active roster included five Vietnam vets (three Rangers, a UH-1 medevac pilot, and a former F-4 driver with one MiG-17 under his belt). These are guys who fought the same battles Zeek did, and now they've brought their talents to the C.A.P.'s SAR and education missions. These men deserve respect...not clowns like Zeek.

 

[Typhoon1244]

Zeek, you're army, that says everything, you couldn't get into a real service.

Hey now, wait a minute...!

(See, Zeek? You've got them assuming everybody in the U.S. Army is a loser like you. Lay off before you ruin all our reputations!)

 

[Chunk]

A few more points....

Talking about this thread with a friend of mine reminded me of a few other points about CAP....

1. Operation Snoop-on-Local-Airport-Plane-writing-down-N numbers

Sending cadets around airports to report "suspiscous" aircraft. (for example...vegetation in the back...any sign of landing soft field...really devious stuff!)

Two steps from goose-stepping and switching uniforms from cammies (which make a lot of sense for SAR ops...no really it does) to brown shirts.

Since they couldn't get into hangars, they only snooped planes that are tied down outside....I guess smugglers never use a hangar!

2. Fighting with the USAF (the sponsoring agency) and refusing to turn over their books, forcing the raid of National HQ by feds (Treasury agents, IIRC). Taking USAF to court! Smart....reeeeaalll smart.


3. Sponsoring a racing team....uhhhh need I say more?

Wanna do something to combine aviation with helping your fellow man? Try any of the medical airlift organizations...AirLifeline, etc. etc. etc. OR Young Eagles if you want to help young people get into aviation. If you're really into CAP...go for it. Just don't expect me to pay for it!

Chunk

 

[STEVE CANYON]

To Zeek and Chunk: Bite Me

To All Others With a Genuine Interest:

Just a couple references of what CAP has done. First, They were a major part of the search for the missing A-10 in Colorado a few years ago. Second, fufilling their Civil Defense functions in the aftermath of 9/11.

In my 18 years as a member, I have worked with both ex and retired military, airline professionals, and other professionals outside the aviation industry. As a former cadet, the organization was my first exposure to a professional aviation organization.

As far as sponsoring the race car team.........I do question that.

 

[A Squared]

To Zeek and Chunk: Bite Me

Yeah, that's an inteligent response. I'm not going to try to defend Zeek, as he's obviously trying to be antagonistic, but Chunk has some real observations about some of the things wrong with the organization and why so many people look down on it. Maybe you ought to listen to what people are saying about CAP instead of hurling insults. In fact Chunk hit on one of the fundamental defects of the organization. It is filled with people who consider themselves "active duty", who aparently get some pathetic fulfilment from dressing up in faux military costumes, who really think thier make believe "rank" is meaningful.

Now, these perversions, fetishes, if you will, are probably harmless by themselves, but they are indicative of persons with pretty profound emotional shortcomings. Unfortunately, there are a lot of those in CAP. The fact that they are probably the most visible segment of CAP tends to obscure the normal folks there who are just trying to help out with the SAR mission.

You want to make a difference in CAP? you want CAP to get some respect? Here's how:

Get rid of the fake uniforms, get rid of the phony rank, stop prancing around saluting each other, get out of the "drug interdiction" racket, get rid of the race car. I think that you'll find that CAP will lose a lot of it's appeal for the real losers and they will drift off somewhere else. Hopefully, you'll be left with a membership of more balanced individuals who are interested in aviation and search and rescue.


Typhoon:

>>>>>>My squadron in Tennessee tried very hard to function as if it were a Reserve unit; uniform regulations were strictly enforced (both for cadets and senior members)

See, that's exactly the point that many are trying to make. There's not a single thing that CAP does that can't be done just as effectively in a clean pair of Levis and a casual shirt (and maybe cold weather gear in the north) Any time and effort expended "trying to function as a reserve unit" or enforcing uniform regulations is just taking time and effort away from the SAR mission, and is making you the object of scorn and ridicule. Until you grasp that truth, and do something to change it, you're always going to wonder why the rest of the aviation world laughs when CAP is mentioned.

regards

 

[Veronaut]

"My call tonight is for every American to commit at least two years -- 4,000 hours over the rest of your lifetime -- to the service of your neighbors and your nation. (Applause.) Many are already serving, and I thank you." President George W. Bush in the Sate of the Union Speech January, 2002.

If you are heeding the call to service of your neighbors & your nation, I too thank you. However you are doing it, in the Armed Forces, Civil Air Patrol, Boy Scouts, Red Cross, volunteer fire department, etc., you are answering the call to service, & thank God there are Americans like you willing to do their part. I mean that sincerely.

As far as calling civilians "Sir" or "Ma'am", I wasn't aware that that has gone out of vogue for military personnel. It's probably gone the way of "By your leave, Sir/Ma'am."

There is no question that a service organization must be accountable to not only it's members, but the people it serves. Hopefully discussions like this one won't deter good people from volunteering for organizations that could use their help.

'naut

 

[Chunk]

ASquared,

Thanks for backing me up.


Steve Canyon,

Go reread my posts versus Zeeks'....you will see a difference.


Zeek,

I'm embarrassed to to be grouped with you. You are an embarrassment to military aviation.


Veronaut,

If you can make the world a better place, do it any way you can! Hopefully, you can be the first in a new wave of CAP leadership that refocuses the organization on service and volunteerism and away from one of a para-miltary organization that has provided a haven for young neophytes that take more pleasure in making their "lower ranking peers" do pushups than they are learning about flying and finding downed aircraft.


Chunk