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[JSky26]

Everyone gets a type. I doubt you can log PIC as an SIC.

I'm kinda new to the biz...

Do the FOs on the CJs log PIC on their "legs" even though the Capt is signing off for the entire flight?

 

[flagshipper]

I'm kinda new to the biz...

Do the FOs on the CJs log PIC on their "legs" even though the Capt is signing off for the entire flight?

You could log it that way part 61 but any job you would ever want to go to like SWA, FDX, and UPS only count Part 1 PIC time which is the person who signed for the aircraft. So 99 percent log all the time as SIC. If you really want PIC Turbine time quickly to make yourself attractive to certain companies I would suggest a regional.

 

[XTW]

I'm kinda new to the biz...

Do the FOs on the CJs log PIC on their "legs" even though the Capt is signing off for the entire flight?

No.



XTW

 

[7777]

The type CS pays for is a PIC type rating correct? I am military and we have our own way, not to familiar with the type rating stuff. Is there such a thing as a SIC or PIC type? I thought a type was always a PIC type?

 

[bailout]

As far as legalitly goes, yes F/Os can log PIC time. They are typed in the A/C and sole manipulator of the controls. It depends on your next employer on how they look at this, but from a log book point of view, its legal. Alot of people here discourage that because 'you didnt sign for the aircraft', but alot of people here arent hiring managers either. Log it, and explain it later..

 

[bailout]

The type CS pays for is a PIC type rating correct? I am military and we have our own way, not to familiar with the type rating stuff. Is there such a thing as a SIC or PIC type? I thought a type was always a PIC type?

Yes PIC type. There is actually an SIC type also, but its more of a 121 thing for some ICAO requirement.

 

[7777]

Thanks for the clarification.

If you get hired by CS do they mind if you moonlight and fly for other folks on your days off?

 

[Sparse]

As far as legalitly goes, yes F/Os can log PIC time. They are typed in the A/C and sole manipulator of the controls. It depends on your next employer on how they look at this, but from a log book point of view, its legal. Alot of people here discourage that because 'you didnt sign for the aircraft', but alot of people here arent hiring managers either. Log it, and explain it later..

Sec. 91.3

Responsibility and authority of the pilot in command.

(a) The pilot in command of an aircraft is directly responsible for, and is the final authority as to, the operation of that aircraft.


OK, lets say on a two pilot aircraft the FO is manipulating the controls. You have an abnormal which states land as soon as pratical. Is the FO going to make that call or the PIC. The FO may and probably will continue flying the aircraft but the PIC will decide when and where the airplane lands. It is what it is. PIC is pilot in "Command". The aircraft commander if you will.

I don't see how anyone could justify logging PIC time if they are not the designated PIC. I don't log PIC time if I am flying with another Captain unless I am the one designated as the PIC. The only exception to this would be during a line check. You must be the PIC during an line check.

 

[7777]

If you get hired by CS do they mind if you moonlight and fly for other folks on your days off?

Bueller?..... Bueller?........ Bueller?

 

[CA1900]

I swear, we go through this every three months on this board...

Sec. 91.3

Irrelevant.

I don't see how anyone could justify logging PIC time if they are not the designated PIC.

Read 61.51(e) and get back to us.

The regulations are very specific about several situations where you can log PIC, even though you are not (or cannot be) the PIC.

Some situations where you can log PIC, even though you cannot act as PIC:

• Your medical is expired, and you go up for an hour of practice with an instructor.
• You go up with an instructor for training towards a tailwheel (or complex, or high-performance) sign-off.
• You go for training towards an instrument rating, in IMC, in a plane for which you are rated.

Those are just some examples where it's 100% legal to log PIC, per 61.51, even though you cannot legally act as PIC.

 

[bailout]

Thanks for the clarification.

If you get hired by CS do they mind if you moonlight and fly for other folks on your days off?

Short answer, is YES they mind.....

 

[JSky26]

Ok, thanks for some of the clarification. New question...

What if the airplane requires a crew of two? Lets say you get hired on into the Sovereign. I'm assuming the company will type you in the airplane. Does the FO now log SIC time every leg or do they log PIC when they are the sole manipulator?

 

[gunfyter]

All require a crew of 2.

You don't need PIC sole manipulator time for anything once you have your ATP. Only the FAA cares about that time.

The PIC time people want is Aircraft Commander time.

 

[7777]

Thanks Bailout, appreciate the help. Now can you tell me why? Just curious. Thanks.

 

[clueless]

Does the FO now log SIC time every leg or do they log PIC when they are the sole manipulator?

Here's the deal.

If you are in a professional flying job, and you want to move up the food chain to a better flying job, you do not log any PIC time until you have upgraded to captain at your current flying job and are flying as such.

Is it legal to log all that "sole manipulator" crap? Yes. Don't do it. Upgrade to captain, and then log PIC.

 

[XTW]

Ok, thanks for some of the clarification. New question...

What if the airplane requires a crew of two? Lets say you get hired on into the Sovereign. I'm assuming the company will type you in the airplane. Does the FO now log SIC time every leg or do they log PIC when they are the sole manipulator?

This is getting old now.

1. All FOs get a full type rating in their assigned aircraft.

2. Log whatever you want as you will already have an ATP.

3. Be ready to explain all your logged PIC time from your current job to a potential interviewer when you have not yet upgraded at your current job.


X

 

[XTW]

Thanks Bailout, appreciate the help. Now can you tell me why? Just curious. Thanks.

7777,

My gut feeling is that they are concerned about having their pilots available for all time that is afforded them by the FARs. With the 7/7 schedule, it really is not an issue. I don't know anyone who comes anywhere near the FAR maximums in this type of operation. Another reason may be a record-keeping issue. They may be concerned about keeping legal with duty times and rest when the 7/7 gets butted up against a moonlighting trip. The last reason may be not wanting to be linked in any way legally should something happen on a moonlighting trip while your training was provided by CS.

I have never asked, so I really don't know. After I get home after 7 days, I'm ready to enjoy the family, not go back on the road. I don't even do overtime here, the family is too important.



X

 

[SpaceBall 1]

Outside flying is allowed on a case by case basis and authorization is for a one year period. So....after 12 months, you resubmitt a letter for authorization. YOU, are responsible for reporting your outside flying time to the company for annual tracking purposes. As far as I know, outside 135 flying is NOT allowed. 91 only. You do not need authorization for recreational flying or military commitments.

 

[JSky26]

This is getting old now.

1. All FOs get a full type rating in their assigned aircraft.

2. Log whatever you want as you will already have an ATP.

3. Be ready to explain all your logged PIC time from your current job to a potential interviewer when you have not yet upgraded at your current job.


X

Ok, thanks!

Maybe I could get some insight for you guys.

I'm a 22 year old CFI graduating college this May. I've got a great opportunity lined up to fly for a Part 91 corporate flight department. They fly a PC-12, CJ1 and soon to be CJ3. Within 6 months of the job, if all goes well I'd get sent to school on the airplanes to get typed (obviously just a CE-525 type) The pay is well above average (NBAA #s), full bennies, great guys to work with, growing company, very little pop-ups, very few RONs. It seems like a great opportunity for a guy my age.

Most of my buddies are going off to the regionals but the airlines right now at least do not appeal to me at all. My goal is to stay corporate if I can, whether it be a frac or a part 91 gig.

As you can see from my previous questions that I have a bit of a dilemma. Even if I get typed on the airplane, it still seems it wouldn't be the "right" thing to do to log PIC... For now it seems like not the right move in terms of career development but at the same time I feel like its a great opportunity to get some experience. What do you guys think? Should I ditch the job and run to a regional in hopes of building fast TPIC? I'm thinking no but I would like some feedback.

Thanks!

 

[Sparse]

I swear, we go through this every three months on this board...




Irrelevant.

Read 61.51(e) and get back to us.

The regulations are very specific about several situations where you can log PIC, even though you are not (or cannot be) the PIC.

Some situations where you can log PIC, even though you cannot act as PIC:

• Your medical is expired, and you go up for an hour of practice with an instructor.
• You go up with an instructor for training towards a tailwheel (or complex, or high-performance) sign-off.
• You go for training towards an instrument rating, in IMC, in a plane for which you are rated.

Those are just some examples where it's 100% legal to log PIC, per 61.51, even though you cannot legally act as PIC.

Is this a drive by posting? Please go back and re-read the original question.

Also, in terms of FOs logging time in the CE-525, do the FOs log SIC in that aircraft? Are you guys under Part 91 subpart K?

I am saying that in an aircraft that requires two pilots, in normal line operations, a type rated FO cannot log PIC time just because he is manipulating the controls. How anyone can stretch that interpretation is beyond me.I have read the reg and there is no way I would accept as PIC time, time that was logged by an SIC because he was manipulating the controls. The CE525 is a two pilot aircraft unless it is being flown in a single pilot operation, by a pilot with a single pilot endorsement on his type rating, which CS nor any 135 operator does not . Even though he is the manipulator of the controls, he is not the "sole" manipulator of controls. If you log PIC time as the designated SIC, in an opeation such as I have described, you are lying and if you get caught, will have to live with the consequences. Go back and read the original question. It had nothing to do with instructional flying.

The bottom line is if you want legitament jet PIC time and you want it quickly, don't come to the fractionals because it will not happen. If you want a good paying job, descent benefits, a predictable schedule, and a more stable future than a new hire 121 pilot, come to the fractionals.