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[7777]

As usual, thanks for the insight XTW. I do appreciate it.

 

[dingo222]

I just caught a musky scent of ..... riddle.......

 

[Sparse]

deleted

 

[JSky26]

I just caught a musky scent of ..... riddle.......

If that was referring to me...no, I don't go to Riddle...thank god

 

[fullsail]

Remember Tom Simkowski's interview with the consultants in the movie Office Space? If you decide to log your right seat time at CS as PIC when you are NOT signing for the aircraft that's probably how your next interview will go.

 

[SDCFI]

But...what about SWA?

Q. What is the definition of Pilot in Command (PIC) time? A. Southwest Airlines defines "Pilot in Command" as the Pilot responsible for the operation and safety of the aircraft during flight. This definition is taken from PART I of the FAR. Southwest Airlines further allows logging of PIC as follows: For an aircraft requiring a type rating: If both pilots are type rated, the pilot in the left seat and sole manipulator of the controls may log PIC. If only one pilot is type rated only that pilot may log PIC, regardless of seat position. For aircraft not requiring a type rating: Only the pilot in the left seat and sole manipulator of the controls may log PIC.For military personnel, Southwest Airlines will allow flight time logged as "Pilot In Command" (PIC) only if you are the Captain/Aircraft Commander or Instructor Pilot. Primary time will only be considered PIC on a specific aircraft after an individual upgrades to Aircraft Commander in the appropriate aircraft. Time logged, as "Other Time" will not be considered. Look, a CS F/O CAN log PIC when sole manipulator. In SWA's case they will accept it too, as long as it was from the left seat. Just because XYZ airline doesn't accept it doesn't mean you can't do it, just be sure you separate it so that there is no confusion. Why do it at all then? Well at my company they recognize the part 61 definition. If I log my legs as PIC, when I upgrade (same type) I won't be "high mins" even as a brand new Captain. Small potatoes maybe, but one less thing to worry about on the line. If you decide to do contract work or apply for a corporate job it may mean the difference between qualifying for a Captain position or not. If the insurance is good with it, why the hell not? I have 2 PIC columns in my logbook, one for true PIC and one for 61 PIC. The true PIC goes on job apps, the true PIC + 61 PIC are for my company and anyone else who accepts it. Easy enough.

 

[flagshipper]

Of course another minor issue is at CS you can only fly left seat with a standards captain and on empty legs so in my 1.6 years here I have maybe 8 flights from the left seat for a whopping 12 hours.

 

[JSky26]

Q. What is the definition of Pilot in Command (PIC) time? A. Southwest Airlines defines "Pilot in Command" as the Pilot responsible for the operation and safety of the aircraft during flight. This definition is taken from PART I of the FAR. Southwest Airlines further allows logging of PIC as follows: For an aircraft requiring a type rating: If both pilots are type rated, the pilot in the left seat and sole manipulator of the controls may log PIC. If only one pilot is type rated only that pilot may log PIC, regardless of seat position. For aircraft not requiring a type rating: Only the pilot in the left seat and sole manipulator of the controls may log PIC.For military personnel, Southwest Airlines will allow flight time logged as "Pilot In Command" (PIC) only if you are the Captain/Aircraft Commander or Instructor Pilot. Primary time will only be considered PIC on a specific aircraft after an individual upgrades to Aircraft Commander in the appropriate aircraft. Time logged, as "Other Time" will not be considered. Look, a CS F/O CAN log PIC when sole manipulator. In SWA's case they will accept it too, as long as it was from the left seat. Just because XYZ airline doesn't accept it doesn't mean you can't do it, just be sure you separate it so that there is no confusion. Why do it at all then? Well at my company they recognize the part 61 definition. If I log my legs as PIC, when I upgrade (same type) I won't be "high mins" even as a brand new Captain. Small potatoes maybe, but one less thing to worry about on the line. If you decide to do contract work or apply for a corporate job it may mean the difference between qualifying for a Captain position or not. If the insurance is good with it, why the hell not? I have 2 PIC columns in my logbook, one for true PIC and one for 61 PIC. The true PIC goes on job apps, the true PIC + 61 PIC are for my company and anyone else who accepts it. Easy enough.

Hmm interesting....

Are you sure SWA accepts that sort of time? I went on their website and they only accept PIC/Aircraft Commander time, unless I was looking in the wrong place.

http://www.southwest.com/careers/pilots.html

I've been guilty of double logging while working on my instrument and then commercial a few years ago. Instructors told me I could log PIC so I did, being too naive to think anything of it. I like the idea of having 2 PIC columns. I may go back in the logbooks and just do that.

 

[XTW]

Hmm interesting....

Are you sure SWA accepts that sort of time? I went on their website and they only accept PIC/Aircraft Commander time, unless I was looking in the wrong place.http://www.southwest.com/careers/pilots.html

You know, there is the quote above where you are obviously looking to SWA and their PIC requirements, which would point out that you are looking in that direction in the future.

Then, there is the quote below, which you claim to not want anything to do with the airlines and profess to want to get a job in corporate.


"Most of my buddies are going off to the regionals but the airlines right now at least do not appeal to me at all. My goal is to stay corporate if I can, whether it be a frac or a part 91 gig."



You need to keep your story straight to keep from alienating potential employers. Frac, and more so Corporate, can be very close knit and you can step on your d*ck very easily. These people have been burned in the past when they have hired airline types during airline down times, and then lost them when them immediately when the airline recalled them. Many of them will not even think of hiring anyone with an inkling to go airline in the future. It is referred to as "airline stink" in some circles. Actually, the "airline stink" refers to former airline types, not future "airliners", but it could be interpreted as that as well.

This whole string has been about how you can get PIC logged without actually being designated PIC. If all you care about is the PIC column in your logbook, then that points to trying to shortcut the system to get an airline interview. If you take the corporate job and show that you can perform appropriately, then you will be upgraded in due time.

My instinct, is that you only are looking to an airline. Too bad, because there are many different jobs in this profession, many of them very rewarding.


X

 

[BengalsFan]

Imho

Hell no, don't go to the regionals (based on what you have stated).

Take this with a grain of salt, as I am military only and have no experience in the civilian world, but common sense tells me that if I am making good money, full benefits, with a good QOL, working with good peeps, and I'm only 22... why go to the regionals? And log what is legal, but stop worrying so much about the future and enjoy what opportunities you have today! The networking alone will be more valuable than any ammount of hours you'd obtain at the regionals.

Good luck bro

Ok, thanks!

Maybe I could get some insight for you guys.

I'm a 22 year old CFI graduating college this May. I've got a great opportunity lined up to fly for a Part 91 corporate flight department. They fly a PC-12, CJ1 and soon to be CJ3. Within 6 months of the job, if all goes well I'd get sent to school on the airplanes to get typed (obviously just a CE-525 type) The pay is well above average (NBAA #s), full bennies, great guys to work with, growing company, very little pop-ups, very few RONs. It seems like a great opportunity for a guy my age.

Most of my buddies are going off to the regionals but the airlines right now at least do not appeal to me at all. My goal is to stay corporate if I can, whether it be a frac or a part 91 gig.

As you can see from my previous questions that I have a bit of a dilemma. Even if I get typed on the airplane, it still seems it wouldn't be the "right" thing to do to log PIC... For now it seems like not the right move in terms of career development but at the same time I feel like its a great opportunity to get some experience. What do you guys think? Should I ditch the job and run to a regional in hopes of building fast TPIC? I'm thinking no but I would like some feedback.

Thanks!

 

[SKYLAWYER]

Hell no, don't go to the regionals (based on what you have stated).

Take this with a grain of salt, as I am military only and have no experience in the civilian world, but common sense tells me that if I am making good money, full benefits, with a good QOL, working with good peeps, and I'm only 22... why go to the regionals? And log what is legal, but stop worrying so much about the future and enjoy what opportunities you have today! The networking alone will be more valuable than any amount of hours you'd obtain at the regionals.

Good luck bro

I disagree. Someone 22 may want to hedge their bets on the longterm. It is as different as picking mutual fund options depending on how close to retirement you currently are. Straight 91 gigs may be risky unless you are specifically talking major fortune 500 companies. I have flown 2 owners this week who abandoned their individual airplanes for fractional shares. An even closer example is pilots who are captains at our fractional but have to seriously consider NJ's depending on how long thy have before they hang it up. Calculate the situation properly and you may have to give up short term benefits (money, qol, and pay) for a long term goal. Heck @ 22 seems to be the perfect time to be making some calculated risks. I don't believe they poster is as turned off by 121 as he makes it seem. The current economy may not be attractive but I get the feeling he would like to hold his airline card in his deck just in case things turn around. He has another 43 years in this business. 10 years from now he could be in another forum talking about how crazy most of the fractional pilots were. I flew a dot com millionaire last week. My best friend left a job as an investment banker to go join a dot com 5 months too late. He's doing very well but he still stands in TSA lines at the airport. Same market different timing. At 22 IMHO I think you need to follow your heart and be prepared to be accountable for your career decisions. The fractional world is great but I believe sometime down the road we are do for a consolidation ourselves. Some of these startups are starting to remind me of the airline situation.

 

[BengalsFan]

Skylawyer

You make great points. That is what sucks about this industry, there are no for sures. NetJets could become the next PanAm, or not. I guess the young man needs to decide if he is a corporate guy or an airline guy, but at 22 that could change 10 times in the next 2 days. Heck I'm 30 and I still can't decide if I should stay in the AF until retirement or get out and I'd say I change my mind 10 times daily.

 

[SKYLAWYER]

One other small point. When I was at the regionals I flew close to 900 hours every year. At the fractionals I fly close to 300 hours. Should I ever decide to go back to 121 (temporary insanity does happen and it's a legal defense ) I would probably have been far eclipsed in flight time by regional captains who have been flying for years less than I have. Sure I could make the argument that I operate in a constantly changing environment and have been exposed to tons of things a 121 pilot has not but it is still up to the interview team who could very easily say SO WHAT. We fly structured routes and more value someone use to large crew coordination, 121 gate time urgency, constant high density airport operations, and larger category transport PIC time than your bravo or XL. WHo knows what the next job we all interview for will see as a priority.

 

[SKYLAWYER]

Skylawyer

You make great points. That is what sucks about this industry, there are no for sures. NetJets could become the next PanAm, or not. I guess the young man needs to decide if he is a corporate guy or an airline guy, but at 22 that could change 10 times in the next 2 days. Heck I'm 30 and I still can't decide if I should stay in the AF until retirement or get out and I'd say I change my mind 10 times daily.

I feel you pain, my mind changes depending on what time of day it is as well. I loved the fractional market but sometimes remember flying trips with my family in the back and spending time on long overnights with them. Not to mention easily adjusting my schedule for birthdays and you can easily see that both sectors can be appealing. Heck we lost a tons of guys to recalls. If it was that easy of a decision plenty of folks would have told the 121 world to shove it. They have something to offer and many saw a perceived value on returning to that world.
Military transition sounds like one out of my league. I'm sure you get several different opinions on it and that doesn't help either.

 

[7777]

The fractional world is great but I believe sometime down the road we are do for a consolidation ourselves. Some of these startups are starting to remind me of the airline situation.

Sky, go into this comment a bit deeper please. I have thought similar thoughts but would be interested to read what you have to say about this. Thanks

 

[JSky26]

You know, there is the quote above where you are obviously looking to SWA and their PIC requirements, which would point out that you are looking in that direction in the future.

Then, there is the quote below, which you claim to not want anything to do with the airlines and profess to want to get a job in corporate.


"Most of my buddies are going off to the regionals but the airlines right now at least do not appeal to me at all. My goal is to stay corporate if I can, whether it be a frac or a part 91 gig."



You need to keep your story straight to keep from alienating potential employers. Frac, and more so Corporate, can be very close knit and you can step on your d*ck very easily. These people have been burned in the past when they have hired airline types during airline down times, and then lost them when them immediately when the airline recalled them. Many of them will not even think of hiring anyone with an inkling to go airline in the future. It is referred to as "airline stink" in some circles. Actually, the "airline stink" refers to former airline types, not future "airliners", but it could be interpreted as that as well.

This whole string has been about how you can get PIC logged without actually being designated PIC. If all you care about is the PIC column in your logbook, then that points to trying to shortcut the system to get an airline interview. If you take the corporate job and show that you can perform appropriately, then you will be upgraded in due time.

My instinct, is that you only are looking to an airline. Too bad, because there are many different jobs in this profession, many of them very rewarding.


X

Wow, so quick to judge. But hey, this is flightinfo.com! I do appreciate the insight though.

I was just simply interested in what employers in general require all across the board, whether it be airlines, corporate, etc.

I'm in no way looking to cut corners. I am extremely blessed for the opportunity that has come across my table because I know its a rare deal.

I am well aware of the airline stink. I have good friends who fly corporate ranging from a Fortune 100 department to a 135 op that are constantly reminding me of this.

I'm taking the corporate job. I would be crazy not to. I just wanted to see some other perspectives.

Thanks everyone!

 

[XTW]

Good luck to you JSky!

Nothing in my post was meant to judge. The way your questions were worded come across as you being very intent on logging PIC time. I just want you to know that you may have to explain yourself later on when you interview in the future if you are going to log "sole manipulator of controls" as PIC. I don't want you to be blindsided.

Once again, good luck.


X

 

[JSky26]

Good luck to you JSky!

Nothing in my post was meant to judge. The way your questions were worded come across as you being very intent on logging PIC time. I just want you to know that you may have to explain yourself later on when you interview in the future if you are going to log "sole manipulator of controls" as PIC. I don't want you to be blindsided.

Once again, good luck.


X

Thanks X...My PIC time will come eventually

 

[SKYLAWYER]

Sky, go into this comment a bit deeper please. I have thought similar thoughts but would be interested to read what you have to say about this. Thanks

I have just always felt that our market is becoming a little crowded. I am not talking about the major players, but it seems that people are fractioning every aircraft that comes to the market these days. And everyone is convinced that their new formula is the magic formula. I hesitate to say this because I don't want to start a long thread that evolves into an argument but I don not personally see the long term vision of certain fractional providers. The magic wal-mart formula was to price other small store operators out of business. In small towns after every other store went belly up due to walmart they were then free to charge whatever they wanted. If another store that was not a major powerhouse as well (K-mart, target, etc) decided to re open because walmart was no longer competitive they would simply lower prices again before the other store got up and running. NJ is now a very profitable company. If they decided it was worth their time to price the beech jet or smaller fleets comparable to lets say a pilatus or eclipse, what would you buy? Once the other companies could no longer afford to stay in business you then raise the rates the next contract around. By this time the customer is use to the experience and is willing to pay a premium for the consistency of the service they have become accustomed to. This can be done by any major player but usually is only an effective strategy of a company with some cash on the books, or another means of sustaining the loss. (backing from a manufacturer of financing company that realizes the vision). Big cash cows can also buy out the competition and make them go bye-bye. Study the systematic success of the Mr. Buffet and I can for see him going to expand as far as possible. Soon the only way to expand will be by purchasing or eliminating some competition. There will always be more than one player in any industry, but we all see the skybus show up and everyone except for them seems to notice the big hole in the bottom of thier shiny new boat. The big guy sometimes forgets the service aspect of things and that allows others to enter the market, but if you can't meet the growing needs of a business or family man. No matter how nice you are that business or person will move on. Just my opinion by the way, feel free to engage your thoughts for a health adult conversation.

 

[SKYLAWYER]

Another side note is twice this month I have flown new owners who have sold the company aircraft to go the way of the fractional market. We have done to some small 91 operations exactly what I have described above. No fault of our own but it just goes to show that most people will do what makes the most sense economically at the end of the day. I am sure they loved their pilot but the numbers showed our business to be a much more cost effective way of doing things. These people made a lot of money by being very smart.