CitationShares Upgrade timeframe

[commuterguy]

I did a search and the most recent thread I found on upgrades was from April of 2007. In that thread they were saying 2 years, or even less. What would a newhire expect as far as upgrade times? Is there any talk that the company may slow growth due to the slowing economy?

 

[RCA]

Some estimates for upgrade are 3-4 years.
They plan on growing the fleet by 5-12 airplanes per year for the next five years.

 

[flagshipper]

The next people in line to upgrade have been here about 2.5 years so it will be close to 3 by the time they upgrade. I would say for new hires it will be between 4 and 5 of course this is subject to many variables. CS (and NJ) are not the kind of places one would come to for a quick upgrade but FOs are making more money here than regional capts so it is more of an overall QOL thing.

 

[7777]

I was told it would be 3.5 to 4 years.

 

[flagshipper]

I was told 1.5 to 2 years about 1.5 years ago and I am at least 1.5 years away. NJ still says 3 years in their interview presentation which is also bogus.

Probably the variable that could change upgrade time the most at CS is staffing ratios. They are working (they say) towards a 4.5 pilots/airplane ratio but if there is ever an improvement in vacation or alternative schedules come out they would have to up this and if it went to 5 they would need about 50 more guys overnight which means 25 upgrades over time in addition to growth and attrition.

 

[7777]

My information came from one of your pilots so take it for what that is worth.

 

[CopilotDoug]

What would a newhire expect as far as upgrade times?

Probably not fast enough to fit your schedule. If your decision pivots on the magical upgrade (much like the regionals) don't do it.

 

[commuterguy]

Probably not fast enough to fit your schedule. If your decision pivots on the magical upgrade (much like the regionals) don't do it.

Don't follow your thought process on that one. With any aviation job, how can one NOT factor in the expected upgrade time into their decision?

 

[CopilotDoug]

Because Sh!t happens and there's too many "What if" scenarios.

 

[bailout]

i would guess at leas t5 + years for a newhire today. Of course alot depends on attrition, but simple math of 5(ish) new planes a years and at 1.5 CPTs per plane, puts upgrades at 7-8 a year. We are currently 33 (ish) CPTs overstaffed, it will be 4 years or so before that gets caught up. If you add attrition of @ 20-25 a year, that number drops to 1.5 years and thats for the guy who is NEXT to upgrade from today. As a newhire you would be at least 150-175 numbers back, so 25 (attrition) X 5 (years) = 125, and then 8 (upgrades) X 5 (years) = 40. 125 + 40 = 165 numbers back. Simple math, but not so simple numbers. It all depends on attrition and deliveries.

 

[commuterguy]

Yes stuff does happen and nothings set in stone. If we wanted to avoid it entirely we would all be accountants instead of pilots. Thanks bailout for the informative post. Appreciate it.

 

[7777]

APC shows these numbers for your aircraft. The Excel and Bravos make up over half your fleet. I would think a new hire on the Excel or Bravo is going to be sitting in the right seat a long time. Particularly if you are top heavy (as you said) in captains for these aircraft.

Sovereign: 13
Excel: 27
Bravo: 25
CJ3: 17
CJ1: 3​

 

[7777]

BTW, anyone know what the new hire numbers have been this year? Also, are they focusing more on certain airframes over others for new hires this year? Thanks.

 

[XTW]

APC shows these numbers for your aircraft. The Excel and Bravos make up over half your fleet. I would think a new hire on the Excel or Bravo is going to be sitting in the right seat a long time. Particularly if you are top heavy (as you said) in captains for these aircraft.

Sovereign: 13
Excel: 27
Bravo: 25
CJ3: 17
CJ1: 3​

Those numbers are close enough for conversations sake. It doesn't matter what aircraft a new hire goes to, they will be there quite some time. Upgrades for FOs, are not aircraft dependent. New hires have been going to all airframes except the CJ1.


X

 

[7777]

How long do you think it is for a new hire XTW? If the upgrade is not aircraft specific you are saying you just wait your turn based on your hire date?

 

[XTW]

If the upgrade is not aircraft specific you are saying you just wait your turn based on your hire date?

Yes, most everything is done on a seniority(DOH) basis as of February 1.

Upgrades, for all the above stated reasons, I would venture 4-5years providing nothing changed from this point forward.


X

 

[7777]

Thanks XTW. It is appreciated.

 

[JSky26]

Just a question for CS guys...

If you guys are assigned the CE-525 aircraft as a new-hire do they give you an SIC type on it, if those even exist?

Also, in terms of FOs logging time in the CE-525, do the FOs log SIC in that aircraft? Are you guys under Part 91 subpart K?

Thanks

 

[Sparse]

Just a question for CS guys...

If you guys are assigned the CE-525 aircraft as a new-hire do they give you an SIC type on it, if those even exist?

Also, in terms of FOs logging time in the CE-525, do the FOs log SIC in that aircraft? Are you guys under Part 91 subpart K?

Thanks

Everyone gets a type. I doubt you can log PIC as an SIC.

 

[XTW]

Also, in terms of FOs logging time in the CE-525, do the FOs log SIC in that aircraft? Are you guys under Part 91 subpart K?

Thanks

We operate under 91,91Kand 135. All flights are operated as if they were 135, with a few exceptions.

As far as logging PIC as an SIC, I've heard the angles on this.

1. Empty leg, SIC type-rated, sole manipulator of the controls, Part 61, you technically could log it, I suppose.

Bottom line, you can log anything you want. However, when you go to the next interview or have to explain to an insurance company how your time was logged, it's your reputation that goes under the microscope. If they feel you are stretching the rules, the outcome might not what you were hoping for. Most airlines only consider PIC time, the time that you personally "signed" for the aircraft or the time your company designated you PIC for the flight.

In the end, you have to live with yourself and your decisions.


X

 

[JSky26]

Everyone gets a type. I doubt you can log PIC as an SIC.

I'm kinda new to the biz...

Do the FOs on the CJs log PIC on their "legs" even though the Capt is signing off for the entire flight?

 

[flagshipper]

I'm kinda new to the biz...

Do the FOs on the CJs log PIC on their "legs" even though the Capt is signing off for the entire flight?

You could log it that way part 61 but any job you would ever want to go to like SWA, FDX, and UPS only count Part 1 PIC time which is the person who signed for the aircraft. So 99 percent log all the time as SIC. If you really want PIC Turbine time quickly to make yourself attractive to certain companies I would suggest a regional.

 

[XTW]

I'm kinda new to the biz...

Do the FOs on the CJs log PIC on their "legs" even though the Capt is signing off for the entire flight?

No.



XTW

 

[7777]

The type CS pays for is a PIC type rating correct? I am military and we have our own way, not to familiar with the type rating stuff. Is there such a thing as a SIC or PIC type? I thought a type was always a PIC type?

 

[bailout]

As far as legalitly goes, yes F/Os can log PIC time. They are typed in the A/C and sole manipulator of the controls. It depends on your next employer on how they look at this, but from a log book point of view, its legal. Alot of people here discourage that because 'you didnt sign for the aircraft', but alot of people here arent hiring managers either. Log it, and explain it later..

 

[bailout]

The type CS pays for is a PIC type rating correct? I am military and we have our own way, not to familiar with the type rating stuff. Is there such a thing as a SIC or PIC type? I thought a type was always a PIC type?

Yes PIC type. There is actually an SIC type also, but its more of a 121 thing for some ICAO requirement.

 

[7777]

Thanks for the clarification.

If you get hired by CS do they mind if you moonlight and fly for other folks on your days off?

 

[Sparse]

As far as legalitly goes, yes F/Os can log PIC time. They are typed in the A/C and sole manipulator of the controls. It depends on your next employer on how they look at this, but from a log book point of view, its legal. Alot of people here discourage that because 'you didnt sign for the aircraft', but alot of people here arent hiring managers either. Log it, and explain it later..

Sec. 91.3

Responsibility and authority of the pilot in command.

(a) The pilot in command of an aircraft is directly responsible for, and is the final authority as to, the operation of that aircraft.


OK, lets say on a two pilot aircraft the FO is manipulating the controls. You have an abnormal which states land as soon as pratical. Is the FO going to make that call or the PIC. The FO may and probably will continue flying the aircraft but the PIC will decide when and where the airplane lands. It is what it is. PIC is pilot in "Command". The aircraft commander if you will.

I don't see how anyone could justify logging PIC time if they are not the designated PIC. I don't log PIC time if I am flying with another Captain unless I am the one designated as the PIC. The only exception to this would be during a line check. You must be the PIC during an line check.

 

[7777]

If you get hired by CS do they mind if you moonlight and fly for other folks on your days off?

Bueller?..... Bueller?........ Bueller?

 

[CA1900]

I swear, we go through this every three months on this board...

Sec. 91.3

Irrelevant.

I don't see how anyone could justify logging PIC time if they are not the designated PIC.

Read 61.51(e) and get back to us.

The regulations are very specific about several situations where you can log PIC, even though you are not (or cannot be) the PIC.

Some situations where you can log PIC, even though you cannot act as PIC:

• Your medical is expired, and you go up for an hour of practice with an instructor.
• You go up with an instructor for training towards a tailwheel (or complex, or high-performance) sign-off.
• You go for training towards an instrument rating, in IMC, in a plane for which you are rated.

Those are just some examples where it's 100% legal to log PIC, per 61.51, even though you cannot legally act as PIC.