CitationAir Terminates Pilots on Disability

[G4dude]

What if the employee in question wasn't injured, and held the title of CEO?

He made enough to not require any additional money from the company, of course! I knew you would like that answer!

 

[Lord Wakefield]

this is what he'd say
http://video.despair.com/drkersten/a-thought-about-unions/

 

[CA1900]

Question: why should the employee not bear the risk?

I didn't say he shouldn't bear any risk -- I said he shouldn't bear all of it. I say that because I'm not a contract pilot. I've fully committed to spending my career here, and for the company to just throw me away because I get sick for six months is unconscionable to me. If you believe a company should be able to whatever it wants to maximize profits at our expense, you're certainly entitled to that opinion. I just don't share it.

What "investment" does the employee make? He/she is paid for the work done, it seems to me, so what investment?

I'll use myself as an example. Aside from quitting a previous job, as I said, I moved near one of the 5 crew bases available to me at the time I was hired. That was no small expense, nor was my wife quitting her job for the move.

 

[fischman]

He made enough to not require any additional money from the company, of course! I knew you would like that answer!

That was funny.

 

[G4dude]

this is what he'd say
http://video.despair.com/drkersten/a-thought-about-unions/

Pretty funny video!

 

[rigger]

It's pretty simple stuff. You run out of LTD at some pointso you aren't being paid, OK buT you are still sick or injured ifyou are terminated and were a capt should you be forced to re apply as an f/o do you keep your seniority in the company? What about the pria form employee was terminated that will look great to another employer. How about this industry I am fired cause I fell off a bus saving a little old lady from a certain death, I have been atthiscompany for 20 years now I have to start at a regional as an FO for 20k a year.....this policy does not work in the airplane flying world......it costs nothing to keep the spot for x amount of years...... What about if I get checked outand returned to work from the doctor it the FAA takes 7 months to approve my medical, I should still be terminated???

Bad ju ju atCA now folks!

 

[Sparse]

This is a tough situation for this pilot, but I have a question. How long should a company pay someone who no longer produces for the company? How easy it is, it seems to me, to be compassionate with other people's money.

Recently we had several pilots return for extended disability. One pilot had an inner ear infection that caused vertigo. He was fine within a month but it took a year for the FAA to issue his medical. Under this new policy he woud have been terminated. Another pilot returned after four years with a back issue. He tried several times to return but the company doctor would not approve it. He also would have been terminated. I know there are a few who abuse the program but most pilots want to get their medical back. Punishing the many for the actions of a few is wrong.

 

[Sparse]

What if the employee in question wasn't injured, and held the title of CEO?

CEOs usually have contracts that cover things like this.

 

[G4dude]

CEOs usually have contracts that cover things like this.

I like your avatar, Sparse.

 

[imacdog]

I didn't say he shouldn't bear any risk -- I said he shouldn't bear all of it. I say that because I'm not a contract pilot. I've fully committed to spending my career here, and for the company to just throw me away because I get sick for six months is unconscionable to me. If you believe a company should be able to whatever it wants to maximize profits at our expense, you're certainly entitled to that opinion. I just don't share it.

Are you kidding, of course he does. He's stated that he'd rather see the company fire him and replace him with someone working for 40K less because it would make the company more competitive. This statement is too stupid to come from a pilot and points to him being a management stooge.

 

[G4dude]

Are you kidding, of course he does. He's stated that he'd rather see the company fire him and replace him with someone working for 40K less because it would make the company more competitive. This statement is too stupid to come from a pilot and points to him being a management stooge.

I want the company to keep me because they want to, not because the union coerces them into keeping me. Signed, The Stooge.

 

[gunfyter]

I want the company to keep me because they want to, not because the union coerces them into keeping me. Signed, The Stooge.

I think everyone wants that.

It would be great except do companies ever do things like let go of people who have been around the longest because new blood is cheaper? Downgrade out of seniority only because they save money on type ratings. Things like this.

I understand companies make substantial investments in employees, especially pilots... But the investment we have made in ourselves is also substantial and some guarantees or protection is not unreasonable.

Oh, I also like sparse's avatar.

 

[G4dude]

I think everyone wants that.

It would be great except do companies ever do things like let go of people who have been around the longest because new blood is cheaper? Downgrade out of seniority only because they save money on type ratings. Things like this.

I understand companies make substantial investments in employees, especially pilots... But the investment we have made in ourselves is also substantial and some guarantees or protection is not unreasonable.

Oh, I also like sparse's avatar.

What you say is reasonable, but I am in favor of a merit system, not seniority. Seniority penalizes a pilot who loses his job and has to start at the bottom of the stack somewhere else.

 

[fischman]

I want the company to keep me because they want to, not because the union coerces them into keeping me. Signed, The Stooge.

What you say is reasonable, but I am in favor of a merit system, not seniority. Seniority penalizes a pilot who loses his job and has to start at the bottom of the stack somewhere else.

You're an ideologist. It is what it is, and it ain't gonna happen.

 

[CA1900]

A merit system in this business punishes guys who call in sick when they're sick, and write planes up when they're broken. It rewards those who "perform," even when it flies in the face of safety. I wish that weren't the case, but I've seen it first-hand. It's not a good system for aviation.

 

[doh]

This is a tough situation for this pilot, but I have a question. How long should a company pay someone who no longer produces for the company? How easy it is, it seems to me, to be compassionate with other people's money.

Give them the same deal you give the CEO. He is just another employee at a publicly owned company. So the same deal for all employees. That was easy. Next...

 

[BentOver]

All the merit system says to me is ""ohh ohh I'll do anything for you because I'm willing to be the biggest kiss a.ss at the company.....Where do I purchase the lube..."

That, in a nutshell, is what I think of the merit system.

 

[dime line]

All the merit system says to me is ""ohh ohh I'll do anything for you because I'm willing to be the biggest kiss a.ss at the company.....Where do I purchase the lube..."

That, in a nutshell, is what I think of the merit system.

A real kiss a.ss don't need no lube

 

[G4dude]

A merit system in this business punishes guys who call in sick when they're sick, and write planes up when they're broken. It rewards those who "perform," even when it flies in the face of safety. I wish that weren't the case, but I've seen it first-hand. It's not a good system for aviation.

You might be right, the jury is still out for me on that subject.

 

[nordo_2]

Good union. Bad Union. Pilots only need a union. When you need a union.

 

[B19 Flyer]

A merit system in this business punishes guys who call in sick when they're sick, and write planes up when they're broken. It rewards those who "perform," even when it flies in the face of safety. I wish that weren't the case, but I've seen it first-hand. It's not a good system for aviation.

A merit system means that pilots can act normal instead of towing the union line. It means that there is an expectation that the job is going to be done correctly and pilots will be promoted because they do the job well, not because they have been with the company the longest.

It means the cost structure isn't impacted by a set of unreasonable union work rules and the company can adjust quickly in a time of economic hardship unlike union companies which get forced into bankruptcy because the union agreement means more than the welfare of the entire employee base and company longevity.

It means when a pilot does something truly incorrect and is unsafe, that a union grievance process won't save him to endanger others (like I've seen over and over).

I wish it were the case that merit systems were the standard rather than unions. I've seen unions destroy companies over and over. I've seen unsafe pilots continue to fly and I've seen careers and companies destroyed by unions.

 

[B19 Flyer]

your complete stupidity is driving me there.

Oh admit it broke, you say that to everybody. Even me. You need not drive there, you should be close enough by now to walk it. :beer:

 

[CE750Driver]

A merit system means that pilots can act normal instead of towing the union line. It means that there is an expectation that the job is going to be done correctly and pilots will be promoted because they do the job well, not because they have been with the company the longest.

It means the cost structure isn't impacted by a set of unreasonable union work rules and the company can adjust quickly in a time of economic hardship unlike union companies which get forced into bankruptcy because the union agreement means more than the welfare of the entire employee base and company longevity.

It means when a pilot does something truly incorrect and is unsafe, that a union grievance process won't save him to endanger others (like I've seen over and over).

I wish it were the case that merit systems were the standard rather than unions. I've seen unions destroy companies over and over. I've seen unsafe pilots continue to fly and I've seen careers and companies destroyed by unions.

When I go out on the road, I have NEVER thought about toeing (not towing) the Union line, ever. I HAVE fought to have management work with me for safety reasons, on quite a few 7 day trips. I don't know what company you flew for, but you are like an abused wife or a beaten kid. You are so fundamentally wrecked from YOUR situation, that you can not even fathom a different group, may have a different situation. You are hopeless.

SHUT UP! AND GET ME A TURKEY POT PIE!

 

[fischman]

A merit system means that pilots can act normal instead of towing the union line. It means that there is an expectation that the job is going to be done correctly and pilots will be promoted because they do the job well, not because they have been with the company the longest.

It means the cost structure isn't impacted by a set of unreasonable union work rules and the company can adjust quickly in a time of economic hardship unlike union companies which get forced into bankruptcy because the union agreement means more than the welfare of the entire employee base and company longevity.

It means when a pilot does something truly incorrect and is unsafe, that a union grievance process won't save him to endanger others (like I've seen over and over).

I wish it were the case that merit systems were the standard rather than unions. I've seen unions destroy companies over and over. I've seen unsafe pilots continue to fly and I've seen careers and companies destroyed by unions.

A merit system also means that a pilot who does the right thing by NOT taking off into a thunderstorm, or flying an approach below mins into ASE, or by writing up a broken plane, or by refusing to fly hungry or fatigued (in other words a true PROFESSIONAL) will be fired. The only ones to progress in the merit system are the ones who are willing to do the WRONG thing to get the job done.

 

[wacoflyr]

A merit system also means that a pilot who does the right thing by NOT taking off into a thunderstorm, or flying an approach below mins into ASE, or by writing up a broken plane, or by refusing to fly hungry or fatigued (in other words a true PROFESSIONAL) will be fired. The only ones to progress in the merit system are the ones who are willing to do the WRONG thing to get the job done.

As usual, I believe the truth lies somewhere in the middle.

Management is set up with a chief pilot who, according to FAA design, is supposed to:
a) understand our jobs. A good chief pilot will demand professionalism, and that pilots
work when they are able. But he will also back up a pilot who is sick, hungry,
or refuses to do something stupid or unsafe. That's what a good chief pilot
does.
b) A good chief pilot also should act as a buffer between the pilots and the D.O., and prevent pilot pushing. All the chief pilots I have ever met take their job seriously, and try hard to balance the company's desire to make money with the needs of the pilots. It is a tough job. I know. I used to be one.

Unfortunately, pilots do not sign the chief pilot's paycheck. We also don't pick the chief pilot. And, historically, there has been some abuse. So.... you get the seniority system, a very flawed system that helps protect pilots from abuse, and the company from losing highly trained assets, who otherwise might change jobs far more often than we do. Nobody really likes it. Anybody got any better ideas?

 

[G4dude]

As usual, I believe the truth lies somewhere in the middle.

Management is set up with a chief pilot who, according to FAA design, is supposed to:
a) understand our jobs. A good chief pilot will demand professionalism, and that pilots
work when they are able. But he will also back up a pilot who is sick, hungry,
or refuses to do something stupid or unsafe. That's what a good chief pilot
does.
b) A good chief pilot also should act as a buffer between the pilots and the D.O., and prevent pilot pushing. All the chief pilots I have ever met take their job seriously, and try hard to balance the company's desire to make money with the needs of the pilots. It is a tough job. I know. I used to be one.

Unfortunately, pilots do not sign the chief pilot's paycheck. We also don't pick the chief pilot. And, historically, there has been some abuse. So.... you get the seniority system, a very flawed system that helps protect pilots from abuse, and the company from losing highly trained assets, who otherwise might change jobs far more often than we do. Nobody really likes it. Anybody got any better ideas?

Unionism and merit are both flawed. I choose merit. Good post!

 

[fischman]

As usual, I believe the truth lies somewhere in the middle.

Management is set up with a chief pilot who, according to FAA design, is supposed to:
a) understand our jobs. A good chief pilot will demand professionalism, and that pilots
work when they are able. But he will also back up a pilot who is sick, hungry,
or refuses to do something stupid or unsafe. That's what a good chief pilot
does.
b) A good chief pilot also should act as a buffer between the pilots and the D.O., and prevent pilot pushing. All the chief pilots I have ever met take their job seriously, and try hard to balance the company's desire to make money with the needs of the pilots. It is a tough job. I know. I used to be one.

Unfortunately, pilots do not sign the chief pilot's paycheck. We also don't pick the chief pilot. And, historically, there has been some abuse. So.... you get the seniority system, a very flawed system that helps protect pilots from abuse, and the company from losing highly trained assets, who otherwise might change jobs far more often than we do. Nobody really likes it. Anybody got any better ideas?

Again, you are an ideologists. This is how things would work in an ideal world. Look at Ron White's pilots for example. He did the right thing by tipping off law enforcement about illegal drug use on board the plane. Do you think he kept his job?

http://www.tcoasttalk.com/2008/12/12/fired-pilot-hopes-comedian-punished-for-drugs-in-vero-beach/

The simple truth is that the only way a pilot can get the proper protection to be able to do the right thing on EVERY flight is with a union. Otherwise, he is at the whim of the person writing the check.

 

[gunfyter]

We already have a hybrid Merit/ Seniority system.

If you "merit" it ... you get selected to work in management for the big bucks. Or you get IP and Check airman positions for more pay.

Seems like a fair compromise to me.

Even Santulli said, "In aviation you want unions. You don't want pilots being pressured..." He said that at a hangar Meeting while standing next to Bill Olsen, and it was on video on the company's website.

 

[Willy21]

A merit system requires a level of trust that I have yet to see in a executive management team. I would like nothing more than to see a management team seriously take this approach. Seniority based systems protect the 1%. Since I can't have it both ways I will choose to stay in a seniority based system. Maybe someday somebody will change my mind. For now I will just row the boat and enjoy the ride.

 

[wacoflyr]

Again, you are an ideologists. .

Look, I've put on some weight lately, but that's just rude! There are not
two of me!