CitationAir How Much Longer

[pilotyip]

i think YIP really likes Unions and wishes he flew for one of the fracs..

I turned down NJ in 1999, I couldn't take the pay cut. You know I kinda see a different thing in this thread, you are so unsure of your positions in life that you need to pick on on me and make fun of me because I never made it to the pros. It is just I don't feel that way, this life I am living now is just a follow up to the most fantastic adventure of my life. That was being a Navy pilot flying around the globe projecting the US presence in the world.
BTW I really have nothing against unions, but there are limitations on what they can provide, one thing they can ont provide is job security. Have I posted an untruth about my severance package at Zantop's IBT 747?

 

[The Dude Abides]

http://forums.flightinfo.com/showthread.php?p=2181357#post2181357

Post #162

http://forums.flightinfo.com/showthread.php?p=2211923#post2211923

Post #53

"How bout them apples?"

What do all the pro union Lemmings that were spouting off in these other threads have to say now?

Now what do we do....other than keep paying our dues.....lol? Did you listen? Do you have a plan B or C? The day is here.

Well, since i'm a "union lemming" i'm paying my dues until the end...whenever and whatever form that may take. Again, you fail to make a point.

 

[RCR5]

Well, since i'm a "union lemming" i'm paying my dues until the end...whenever and whatever form that may take. Again, you fail to make a point.

I wouldn't expect you to get any point made.


To the others, we are soon to be without a company and on the streets looking for a job. It would not have happened if the union were not voted in. Unions don't save companies money, they fleece them.

From the auto industry to education to aviation, etc.. They suck across the board. But keep paying your dues.....lol.

 

[imacdog]

We're still waiting for any evidence you have to back up your claim, RCR5.

 

[hammer2]

Can't believe this has turned into an irrelevant "pro/con union" thread...let's hear more opinions why the fractional model didn't work for Citationair.

 

[The Dude Abides]

We're still waiting for any evidence you have to back up your claim, RCR5.

Don't hold your breath, Dog. He can't, and he knows it. Hopefully self-realization will set in for him. Probably not. It was fun before, but now he's just a big bore.

 

[The Dude Abides]

I wouldn't expect you to get any point made.


To the others, we are soon to be without a company and on the streets looking for a job. It would not have happened if the union were not voted in. Unions don't save companies money, they fleece them.

From the auto industry to education to aviation, etc.. They suck across the board. But keep paying your dues.....lol.

Wow! I simply have no words. Your are about the biggest idiot I've ever run across. Didn't you say before that this wasn't because of the union? And are you SURE it wouldn't have happened? Again, excatly how big is your crystal ball and what are the winning lottery numbers?

 

[The Dude Abides]

Oops! How do you delete?

 

[The Dude Abides]

My point is, again, is that pro union posters don't have to fear reprisals. Anti union posters do. So you are really brave, knowing you DON"T have to worry about people defecating in your luggage or poisoning your dog or being hostile in the cockpit or leaving threatening messages on the phone. I DO have to worry about such things, because your side behaves like a spiteful 13 year old, with scab lists and such.

What a bunch of crap! I am a card-carrying union member (finally at CitationAir by Cessna, Where You Belong) and f**** proud of it. My reward for standing up for what I believe in and volunteering to make things better (yes, I actually GOT INVOLVED) is obscene text messages (because they don't have the balls to say it to my face) and guys who won't speak to me even though I've known them for ten years. Who really acts like a spiteful 13 year old? Probably both sides. I've seen complete morons on both sides, but don't think for one second that you're somehow put up on a cross because your anti-union and have more to fear.

 

[The Dude Abides]

Can't believe this has turned into an irrelevant "pro/con union" thread...let's hear more opinions why the fractional model didn't work for Citationair.

Good question. Not sure it wasn't that the model didn't work as much as management missteps.

http://www.cleveland.com/business/index.ssf/2012/02/flights_options_soars_in_jet_d.html

 

[gunfyter]

...let's hear more opinions why the fractional model didn't work for Citationair.

I think you have to have your fleet mix right.

Generally, the crew costs per airframe is the same for all types ... but the revenues are not. Larger faster planes bring in more revenues per crewmember.

I think CS needed a fleet mix heavy on the X.

Whether that can be sold or not ... I don't know.

 

[ozpilot]

My point is, again, is that pro union posters don't have to fear reprisals. Anti union posters do. So you are really brave, knowing you DON"T have to worry about people defecating in your luggage or poisoning your dog or being hostile in the cockpit or leaving threatening messages on the phone. I DO have to worry about such things, because your side behaves like a spiteful 13 year old, with scab lists and such.

I don't agree with most of your posts, but on this point you are spot on.

I just have to ask - are you surprised?

Pilots who cross a picket line are rewarding themselves at the expense of the group. When and if the time comes that you have to decide to scab you have to do what you think is right.

But your living in fantasy land if you can expect to screw the rest of your pilot group and not suffer any consequences. Please don't take this as a threat. It's just a lesson in history. Paint it any way you want, but that's how it is.

 

[BentOver]

A scab deserves whatever he gets and then some

 

[Narrow Bridge]

So what exactly has changed for CA since the union was voted in? Be specific please.

Thats easy, with a Union comes increased costs to the company. Cessna simply said "so long, thanks for playing". Doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure this out.

What was it B19 used to say, "Be careful what you wish for".

 

[imacdog]

Thats easy, with a Union comes increased costs to the company. Cessna simply said "so long, thanks for playing". Doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure this out.

What was it B19 used to say, "Be careful what you wish for".

I'm sorry, you must have missed the fine print where I asked for specifics. Try reading a bit slower next time.

 

[CALRepublic]

Can't believe this has turned into an irrelevant "pro/con union" thread...let's hear more opinions why the fractional model didn't work for Citationair.

It usually does.

My guess, about 15%-20% of pilots don't like unions, (why we're underground, i don't know). However most of us know the union is not going anywhere, it is part of the job, so we accept it and we learn to live with it..

But you have those few who really don't like unions, and they like to tell you all about it.... Then the hard-core union guys go after them, they call'em names, and start this bull$**t game of "let's find out who he is".

and round and round we go

 

[gret]

It usually does.

My guess, about 15%-20% of pilots don't like unions, (why we're underground, i don't know). However most of us know the union is not going anywhere, it is part of the job, so we accept it and we learn to live with it..

But you have those few who really don't like unions, and they like to tell you all about it.... Then the hard-core union guys go after them, they call'em names, and start this bull$**t game of "let's find out who he is".

and round and round we go

Good post and probably reflects the views of a higher percentage of people than what you indicated.

The union did not cause management to shut down the Cessna frac business. People who believe this, pro or anti union, do not have a clue. Sorry to say it, but the company probably did the right thing because the frac model simply doesn't work except in a period of high new owner sales. The actual operation of the a/c loses money and profits have to come from share sales or other sources.

Textron has dealt with unions for decades and a few pilots joining a union isn't going to sway them one way or another...it is merely a pimple on an elephant's butt as far as they're concerned. Can't recall a company that went out of business at the point the unions came. Many have gone under afterwards because the costs of dealing with a union are meaningful.

There was a change of CEO's at Cessna last year and the company is dying a slow death because sales levels have crumbled. Textron wants out of the private a/c business because they are tired of subsidizing it. This is just one step in a much bigger and longer term strategy.

 

[CALRepublic]

Good post and probably reflects the views of a higher percentage of people than what you indicated.

.

I've flown with so many guys that tell me straight up " I don't like unions", then you go to public forums like this one, and they're nowhere to be found, its always the same 2 or 3 posting anti-union stuff. I think most just try to avoid union arguments

as for the predicament that Citation Air is in, union or no union, I don't think it would've made a difference

 

[pilotyip]

The union did not cause management to shut down the Cessna frac business. People who believe this, pro or anti union, do not have a clue.

Textron has dealt with unions for decades and a few pilots joining a union isn't going to sway them one way or another...it is merely a pimple on an elephant's butt as far as they're concerned. Can't recall a company that went out of business at the point the unions came. Many have gone under afterwards because the costs of dealing with a union are meaningful.

There was a change of CEO's at Cessna last year and the company is dying a slow death because sales levels have crumbled. Textron wants out of the private a/c business because they are tired of subsidizing it. This is just one step in a much bigger and longer term strategy.

I've flown with so many guys that tell me straight up " I don't like unions", then you go to public forums like this one, and they're nowhere to be found, its always the same 2 or 3 posting anti-union stuff. I think most just try to avoid union arguments

as for the predicament that Citation Air is in, union or no union, I don't think it would've made a difference

Good posts, however if you post union reality, you are considered anti-union and will attacked by the pro union activists as some form of sub human life. (read SCAB) There is only one way to post and not receive that response and that is to be 100% pro-union and 100% anti-management.

 

[rigger]

Is your union not working on a severance package for the soon to be furloughed pilots? At NJA the furloughed pilots got an additional two months of full pay and benefits after the furlough date. There's no way we would have gotten that much had we been non-union. Also, if you decide to move on to an airline, you may have a tough time if you're not ready to accept unionization as a part of the profession.

Aaaaa wrong history here, citationair furloughed 3 years ago, we got 3 months full pay, cobra paid insurance for the same time frame and set up for unemployment by the company.....no union no talk of union only terrible awful management.....let's see how well the union negotiates an LOA this time....me I'd rather talk it out with my manager and make a deal..but I'm crazy I believe in self reliance and free will and antiquated stuff like that!