Citation Encore Vs Lear 35

[pin727]

Need some help, got offered two jobs one with an encore and the other with a lear, same money, same flying, which is a better plane to fly?
Thanks.

 

[ultrarunner]

Wrong question Pin....

the question is:

"...what is the better company to work for...?"

'it 'aint about the plane'

Unless that's what is important, in which case the Lear will be much more fun to fly. A straight-wing Citation is, well a straight-wing Citation.

 

[Capthuff]

The Lear is like a 74 Porshe 911, fun to drive but NO creature comforts of any kind.
The Citation is like a 2005 Honda Accord, comfy, clean, lotsa gagets to play with, but kinda vanilla. and it probably wont have that funky "Lear Jet" smell.

but the real answer is what UltraRunner said - which is the better company?

 

[CFIcare]

Ultimately the company is the deciding factor, but looking strictly at just the airplanes, you will have much more fun in the Lear. I'm a bit biased, but hey at least I'm not bored. The comparison to a 74' Porsche 911 is accurate. Old school, no-frills fun.

 

[HawkerF/O]

These guys are correct, go with the better company. If both companies were equal, don't count out that Encore. Cessna went to town on that Encore, bolting a pair of PRatts on the back of that smoke wagon. That Encore will out climb that lear under any conditions. The lear climbs great through the 20s, then the 731s begins to taper off. Those P&Ws are derated and have tons more power to give. T/O N1s are in the high 80s if that tells you anything. Where are all the Encore drivers????? It's also a true 440kts airplane, so it might even be faster than that lear as well. Keep in mind the Encore is going to be much more technicalogically advanced, and you want to get EFIS experience, as that is what you will most likey be flying for the remainder of your career, so if both companies are about the same, that Encore is going to be the better choice. If you are looking for fun, that Encore won't let you down.

 

[CapnVegetto]

Hawker's right, except the Encore isn't faster than the lear. The lear does 460 to 470, and the Encore tops out at 440. Climbs like a homesick angel though, The only airplane I know of that will outclimb it is a 20 series lear. Just a coupla days ago, I made it to FL 230 in about 5 minutes. Never got slower than 230 in the climb. That thing will SHOOT up.

 

[miles otoole]

"The Lear is like a 74 Porshe 911, fun to drive but NO creature comforts of any kind.
The Citation is like a 2005 Honda Accord, comfy, clean, lotsa gagets to play with, but kinda vanilla. and it probably wont have that funky "Lear Jet" smell."


Depends-2005 LR 40/45XR or 25 year old LR31/35? Big difference between the two. A 2005 Porsche 911 has XM radio, heated/ergonomic seats, all wheel drive, and a killer sound system.

 

[semperfido]

Wrong question Pin....

the question is:

"...what is the better company to work for...?"

and what is the flight dept like? what is their culture like? which company has the best long term prospects? which dept do you see yourself fitting into better? and how does it all fit with your own long term plans?

dig a little deeper.

 

[Lead Sled]

The lear does 460 to 470, and the Encore tops out at 440.

I've got 3000 hours in a 35 and they won't fly 460 to 470. Perhaps 430 to 440.

'Sled

 

[satpak77]

Need some help, got offered two jobs one with an encore and the other with a lear, same money, same flying, which is a better plane to fly?
Thanks.

not quite sure what you mean by this. FYI, the last Lear 35 rolled off the assembly line in 1993 or 1994ish......while the Encore came out in 1999 or 2000....

If you want "EFIS experience" and other stuff on your resume, you should go Encore

with that said, you should go to the best COMPANY

If Exxon-Mobile flight department wanted to pay me $100,000 to fly a C-90, or Acme Fly-By-Night Charter in south florida wanted to pay me $125,000 to fly a Hawker, I would be wearing Exxon colors....

but that is just me

 

[CapnVegetto]

I've got 3000 hours in a 35 and they won't fly 460 to 470. Perhaps 430 to 440.

'Sled

You're either running it slow or had a old junker. The ones I flew both were in the 460 range. Easy.

 

[Capthuff]

the only time I see 460kts is in the low 30s, in the 40s you'll see 440 or so...

you made it to 230 in 5 minutes? so what - you're still in the trop. try getting to 430 in 17 minutes. thats my best time in the 31

But I do believe that overall the Citation is a better product than the 30 series Lear. But the 40/45 has them both beat by a mile. That is why we are selling the 31 and getting a 45.

a nice Christmas present for me.

 

[CapnVegetto]

I've seen 460 at 370 many times. Get it above that and it starts to peter out. But most of the time, we'd run it at 370 or 390, and go to 410 once we burn off some gas. Took it to 430 a few times and 450 once, not really worth it to go up there. I haven't flown one in a few years, (back in the pre-RVSM days), so about 80% of the time I was at 370 or 390, and I almost always saw 460 true at 370, and once above that, like I said, it'd start to peter out.

Best time in the Encore for me was 410 in 18 minutes. I don't know much about a LR-31, so I'm sure it'll outclimb the ENC.

 

[Lead Sled]

the only time I see 460kts is in the low 30s, in the 40s you'll see 440 or so...

I agree with you. FL250 is the optimum altitude in a 35 if you're looking for speed, but it's hardy the most efficient altitude. The only way you're going to be seeing more than 440 KTAS at 370 or higher is if you disregard the published engine limitations in the AFM.

'Sled

 

[CapnVegetto]

I agree with you. FL250 is the optimum altitude in a 35 if you're looking for speed, but it's hardy the most efficient altitude. The only way you're going to be seeing more than 440 KTAS at 370 or higher is if you disregard the published engine limitations in the AFM.

'Sled

What did you run it at? Straight out of the book 795 degrees ITT for max cruise is what we ran it at. 460 almost every time at 370.

Edit: Also had DEECs instead of EECs on ours, so the engines performed a little better than on the older ones. With the DEECs turned off the power output of the engine was noticably less. 795 ITT got you a LOT less N1 without DEECs than with.

 

[satpak77]

who gives a rats a** about what "you see" on the airspeed

what do you see on the paycheck

jesus christ

 

[some_dude]

More relevant is what mach you were running at. TAS will vary with temp.

And, when calculating TAS, did you remember to take into account the mach error on the non-Rosemount probe Lears?

As for the job question, like everyone else said, choice of airplane is very much secondary to quality of company and job.

What did you run it at? Straight out of the book 795 degrees ITT for max cruise is what we ran it at. 460 almost every time at 370.

Edit: Also had DEECs instead of EECs on ours, so the engines performed a little better than on the older ones. With the DEECs turned off the power output of the engine was noticably less. 795 ITT got you a LOT less N1 without DEECs than with.

 

[HawkerF/O]

the only time I see 460kts is in the low 30s, in the 40s you'll see 440 or so...

That's the case with any jet aircraft. Best #s are going to be in the 30s. Citation X for example won't see a hint of .92 in the 40s, but if you have to get there and need the speed, drop in down into the 30s and hang on. Efficiency of the fan drops of considerably when in the 40s, but it does not have to work as hard, so the fuel #s go way down.

you made it to 230 in 5 minutes? so what - you're still in the trop. try getting to 430 in 17 minutes. thats my best time in the 31

You were light, it was very cold, you had an unrestricted climb, and when you arrived at TOC, the 31 was on it tail and not on speed. I think what CaptV is trying to say is proven here in your statement. You made it to 43 in 17 and that is some sort of record. In the Encore with the P&Ws, that is just another day at the office; not a big deal. The LR60 will do that all day long and it has a little stronger version of the same P&Ws the Encore has. Garretts are nice, but at the end of the day, they get romped by the Pratts. Falcon moved away from the Garretts on the 7X and F2th and put P&Ws on them. The 2000DX is at 410 in 17 minutes and that is a normal profile. The 7X is their flag ship, and the trusted Pratt to get the job done and they are getting better than expected performace out of the airplane, so much so that they are considering putting winglets on the 7X to eek even more performance out of it. Next time you see a LR60 or Encore taking off, stand out there and listen. It is much quieter than the Garretts; be sure to go to the 1st 1/4th of the runway, cause they dont need much to get airborne.

But I do believe that overall the Citation is a better product than the 30 series Lear. But the 40/45 has them both beat by a mile. That is why we are selling the 31 and getting a 45.

a nice Christmas present for me.

You are selling the 31 cause the boss figured out it has no range. The 40/45 still have Garretts on them, so it might have a little bigger interior, but it will by no means out perform the Encore. It has more range than the Encore, but in terms or raw performance, the Encore has is beats. Bombardier took a plug out of the 45 and called it a 40 along with a few other changes, but that plug they took out of it was the only part of the 45 that worked properly. The month long 45 fleet grounding was also a welcomed surprise I am sure. Go fly something that has P&Ws on it, and you'll be singing a different tune.

 

[CapnVegetto]

More relevant is what mach you were running at. TAS will vary with temp.

And, when calculating TAS, did you remember to take into account the mach error on the non-Rosemount probe Lears?

As for the job question, like everyone else said, choice of airplane is very much secondary to quality of company and job.

.79-.80 all day long. Redline of .81. And yes, we had Rosemont probes. Came with the RVSM package. We had RVSM certification a year before it took effect. TAS was calculated by an instrument we had connected to the system that also calculated the SAT. You could also calculate it in the CALC mode of the GPS.

 

[Lead Sled]

What did you run it at? Straight out of the book 795 degrees ITT for max cruise is what we ran it at. 460 almost every time at 370.

Edit: Also had DEECs instead of EECs on ours, so the engines performed a little better than on the older ones. With the DEECs turned off the power output of the engine was noticably less. 795 ITT got you a LOT less N1 without DEECs than with.

It may be time for a thread on powerplant management, but not today...

Put simply, you really shouldn't use ITT as your primary power setting reference on Garrett TFEs. The manuals use N1 for proper power settings with ITT "not to exceed xxx degrees." On nice fresh, strong engines the appropriate N1 will be achieved with comparatively lower ITTs. Older, more worn engines will require more "heat" to achieve the appropriate N1. ITT (and N2) is more indicative of engine health or condition. If you've got strong engines, running them at the ITT limit can exceepd the N1 recommendations - but the airplane will sure fly fast.

Merry Christmas

'Sled