CHQ Scabs? reminicient of GJ isn't it?

[~~~^~~~]

Even with all of the undercutting that has gone on amongst regional airlines in the past, how many times have 700 pilots been left without jobs because 25% of their airplanes were transferred over to be flown by a different regional airline that will do it for less money? To the best of my knowledge, it hasn't happened before. I'm getting tired of hearing about how it has been happening everywhere else and now it is XJT's turn. No, this HASN'T been going on everywhere else.

It happened on the US Air property, where mainline guys took the flying and is now happening to Mesaba where Northwest guys are taking the flying. Your situation is different inasmuch as Continental has been a success story since Bethune's involvement.

All of this alter ego pilot replacement the direct result of ALPA's failed scope policy. We (the ASA pilot leadership) warned the COEX pilot leadership of exactly this scenario before your pilots were lead into the ALPA certification vote.

I do not know how close you were to one list, or one scope, with your Continental pilot brothers, but your pilot leadership was warned to get a deal in writing before voting ALPA on the property.

Of course at the time ALPA told you all the things you wanted to hear about their commitment to brand scope and one list. Since then you have heard a zillion reasons why these things just did not work out. But notice that this is a pattern and the pattern is the result of ALPA national's bargaining agenda where most pilots are sacrificed to try to preserve the absolute scope power and negotiating authority of the few major airline pilots that have control of ALPA National.

This is exactly the reason why you and I need the same representational power ALPA gives to its preferred pilots - to stop the process of having our jobs put out to bid. Supposably ALPA is a grass rotts organization, run by its members. If that is the case, it is our fault. We send ALPA lakeys forward to represent us who are willing to battle management, but unwilling to even rock the boat at ALPA National out of fear that someone in Herndon wont like them anymore and they will not be warmly recieved at the hospitality suites.

 

[Medic1277]

Dude, it happened back in 1994 at Allegheny / Pennsylvania Airlines, when Mesa took over a major portion of the USAir express flying in PHL because they were cheaper. I know this for a fact, since I was one of those pilots furloughed because of that bastard JO. It does happen and it will continue unless all of you guys take a stand!! But thats just what I think.

Even with all of the undercutting that has gone on amongst regional airlines in the past, how many times have 700 pilots been left without jobs because 25% of their airplanes were transferred over to be flown by a different regional airline that will do it for less money? To the best of my knowledge, it hasn't happened before. I'm getting tired of hearing about how it has been happening everywhere else and now it is XJT's turn. No, this HASN'T been going on everywhere else.

 

[Corbon]

Jack Mahoggoff nailed it. Believe it or not, we did the industry a FAVOR with our last contract. Consider this scenario. Say we got Comair+ x% pay rates and everything else we have in our contract except we don't stop Republic. So all of our 170s would be flown by pilots not on our seniority list, much like the G0-Jet scenario. They would all be on first year pay, and RAH would be loving life. Now bring in the current financial problems with our codeshares and Bedford would know he has some pretty good leverage against us. All he would have to do is tell us to take concessions or risk transferring that flying over to Republic because THEY would do it for cheaper.

Now consider negotiations for the next contract. We would have been pitted against Republic and would have lost a huge amount of bargaining power. Instead of having 1500-2000 pilots being able to fight for a great contract in a healthier economical environment this time around, we would have been faced with the ever present threat of taking what the company gives us or watching aircraft be swapped onto the Republic certificate and see CHQ disappear to a labor force that will work cheaper than any regional out there. They would laugh at even a 100% strike vote knowing they hold the major bargaining chip: the ability to transfer our airplanes to a certificate with a pilots list that WILL fly them under the conditions the company wants.

As far as our 170 rates, you don't have to lecture me about how low they are. I know. However, those aircraft were going to be flown at those rates or lower regardless of who flies them. Once again, reference the G0-Jet fiasco. It's obvioius the 170/190 is Bedfords pride and joy. He wanted them very badly and was determined to operate them somewhere, preferably flown by pilots all on a the first year payscale. That would have been a management/stockholders wet dream.

So how exactly did we lower the bar again? We improved every area of our contract while maintaining the bargaining power of one pilot group by shutting down an alter-ego. That alter-ego would have been able to underbid any pilot group out there and then while YOUR MEC was sitting at the bargaining table you would hear "well, these are the 70 seater Republic rates with which you have to compete. And these are the 50 CHQ rates after they took the concessions that were rammed down their throat." Then we would have gotten blasted for NOT stopping Republic. As the TSA guys now know, once you let that alter ego cat out of the bag, you're screwed. We maintained our leverage for the next contract, a contract that will be negotiated without the looming threat of losing our jobs to some real bottemfeeders lower than anybody out there.

If you think we have a crappy contract, well, that's your opinion. It's not the greatest but far from the worst. But stop for a second and realize the negative impact Republic would have had on everyone in the regional airline industry, especially now with the increase in 70 seat flying. Who knows the damage that will be done by G0-Jets alone.

 

[kc1]

What a career!

Wow, what an awesome career. We are all officially commodities. Our only differentiation is in how cheap we are. I think it's time to realize that this industry probably aint gonna get any better. Time to get out (unless you just consider flying for an airline a "hobby")

 

[EMBPILOT1]

^ WOW someone finally gets it. Yes we are commodities and pawns used to make money for shareholders or owners. The day they find a replacement for us, will be the happiest day in management history. Pilots are a dime a dozen, and unless that changes, this industry will not get any better. No regional cares about your family or your house or car payment, they only care that you show up and fly pax or cargo from point A to B hopefully in a safe manor. And if they can find someone to do it for less, well sign them up.

 

[beechcowboy]

The other problem is you cannot expect experienced pilots to lose their jobs be displaced and have no place to go except for very low paying jobs. This is a huge problem with the upheavel in the industry and the constant churning of jobs. The current system doesn't work in the deregulated airline industry.

AMEN! A displacement would not be nearly as devastating if you could make a lateral move in pay/benefits, but the airline environment does not reward experience. In fact, in some places, you couldn't be hired b/c you are too experienced for the FO seat on an RJ. Believe it or not, I heard this from the mouth of a recruiter one time. Too experienced to look out for 50 - 70 people's lives. Maybe the passengers should hear that. Another problem that we should be addressing. Why haven't we addressed this yet? It's been happening for years. Pretty soon this will be a bachelor's or bachellorette's job only b/c married folk, who, let's face it, have exponentially more financial responsibilities, will be unable to financially weather the lay offs and re-hires. Some of these guys who talk so big right now, will find themselves eating there words when they too are in a similar situation with a family. I hope for there sake, it never comes to that.

 

[jetfo]

I am not sure whether GJ was created to hurt another pilot group. I thougth it was created to avoid AA scope issues. The same reason Republic Holdings created Shuttle and Republic.

Wrong. All pilots at Republic Airways Holdings fly under the Chautauqua Master Seniority List. No doubt we gave up something to get this (highest pay in industry? Who knows.). You could've offered me FedEx A380 pay but if you don't have an airplane to fly because your flying was transferred to "another carrier" and all you were worried about was being the highest pay in the industry, your pay rate will end up at precisely $0.00. Do you think the pilots at Trans States would take our current CBA to have all flying on the same list? I thought so.

I know that CHQ operates under one master seniority list and that should have happened at TSA, but was voted down!

In retrospect, the TSA pilots should have been more concerned with getting the flying and worry about the pay rates later.

That's exactly what pilots at other carriers had to do to get the flying and they will address the pay issues with the next contract when the industry will hopefully be in better shape.

 

[jetfo]

It happened on the US Air property, where mainline guys took the flying and is now happening to Mesaba where Northwest guys are taking the flying. Your situation is different inasmuch as Continental has been a success story since Bethune's involvement.

All of this alter ego pilot replacement the direct result of ALPA's failed scope policy. We (the ASA pilot leadership) warned the COEX pilot leadership of exactly this scenario before your pilots were lead into the ALPA certification vote.

I do not know how close you were to one list, or one scope, with your Continental pilot brothers, but your pilot leadership was warned to get a deal in writing before voting ALPA on the property.

Of course at the time ALPA told you all the things you wanted to hear about their commitment to brand scope and one list. Since then you have heard a zillion reasons why these things just did not work out. But notice that this is a pattern and the pattern is the result of ALPA national's bargaining agenda where most pilots are sacrificed to try to preserve the absolute scope power and negotiating authority of the few major airline pilots that have control of ALPA National.

This is exactly the reason why you and I need the same representational power ALPA gives to its preferred pilots - to stop the process of having our jobs put out to bid. Supposably ALPA is a grass rotts organization, run by its members. If that is the case, it is our fault. We send ALPA lakeys forward to represent us who are willing to battle management, but unwilling to even rock the boat at ALPA National out of fear that someone in Herndon wont like them anymore and they will not be warmly recieved at the hospitality suites.

You're absolutely right and the only answer is implementation of "Brand Scope" and pay for number of seats flown!

Result: End of whipsawing, a clear pilot career path/stability, and end of pilot infighting.

The only thing left in contract negotiations would be pay rates and minor work rule improvements.

 

[jetfo]

Jack Mahoggoff nailed it. Believe it or not, we did the industry a FAVOR with our last contract. Consider this scenario. Say we got Comair+ x% pay rates and everything else we have in our contract except we don't stop Republic. So all of our 170s would be flown by pilots not on our seniority list, much like the G0-Jet scenario. They would all be on first year pay, and RAH would be loving life. Now bring in the current financial problems with our codeshares and Bedford would know he has some pretty good leverage against us. All he would have to do is tell us to take concessions or risk transferring that flying over to Republic because THEY would do it for cheaper.

Now consider negotiations for the next contract. We would have been pitted against Republic and would have lost a huge amount of bargaining power. Instead of having 1500-2000 pilots being able to fight for a great contract in a healthier economical environment this time around, we would have been faced with the ever present threat of taking what the company gives us or watching aircraft be swapped onto the Republic certificate and see CHQ disappear to a labor force that will work cheaper than any regional out there. They would laugh at even a 100% strike vote knowing they hold the major bargaining chip: the ability to transfer our airplanes to a certificate with a pilots list that WILL fly them under the conditions the company wants.

As far as our 170 rates, you don't have to lecture me about how low they are. I know. However, those aircraft were going to be flown at those rates or lower regardless of who flies them. Once again, reference the G0-Jet fiasco. It's obvioius the 170/190 is Bedfords pride and joy. He wanted them very badly and was determined to operate them somewhere, preferably flown by pilots all on a the first year payscale. That would have been a management/stockholders wet dream.

So how exactly did we lower the bar again? We improved every area of our contract while maintaining the bargaining power of one pilot group by shutting down an alter-ego. That alter-ego would have been able to underbid any pilot group out there and then while YOUR MEC was sitting at the bargaining table you would hear "well, these are the 70 seater Republic rates with which you have to compete. And these are the 50 CHQ rates after they took the concessions that were rammed down their throat." Then we would have gotten blasted for NOT stopping Republic. As the TSA guys now know, once you let that alter ego cat out of the bag, you're screwed. We maintained our leverage for the next contract, a contract that will be negotiated without the looming threat of losing our jobs to some real bottemfeeders lower than anybody out there.

If you think we have a crappy contract, well, that's your opinion. It's not the greatest but far from the worst. But stop for a second and realize the negative impact Republic would have had on everyone in the regional airline industry, especially now with the increase in 70 seat flying. Who knows the damage that will be done by G0-Jets alone.

You guys at CHQ by accident or design did the right thing for your pilot group and for the industry in maintaining one list.

Unfortunately, the TSA MEC was not able to accomplish that, apparently because pay was a higher priority. TSA MEC thought they could bargain the 70 seat rates up and didn't believe that mgmt would actually start another carrier on another certificate.

They lost their gamble and the result is bad for the TSA guys and yet another bad precedent set for this industry, at least from the point of view of the pilots.

 

[jetfo]

Wow, what an awesome career. We are all officially commodities. Our only differentiation is in how cheap we are. I think it's time to realize that this industry probably aint gonna get any better. Time to get out (unless you just consider flying for an airline a "hobby")

I consider it my charitable contribution to society! I wonder if it is deductible?