CHQ Scabs? reminicient of GJ isn't it?

[jetfo]

And before you guys start, I don't think CHQ new hires are Scabs, it is simply a thought provoking tiltle!

Although I think is sucks, the fact is that ExpressJet has lost 69 aircraft worth of flying to a lower bidder. They will, unfortunately for the ExpressJet pilots, furlough about 700 of their pilots. Positions that will be taken by new hire CHQ pilots. And, there is no other market for the ERJ's but CHQ.

Doesn't that remind anyone of the GJ deal? There are some differences, but unlike the GJ deal where the pilots at TSA were deprived of growth, here CHQ pilots are taking the jobs of soon to be furloughed ExpressJet pilots.

Seems to me that is a little more serious than what happened at TSA/GJ, where no one lost their job and new positions were created, although those positions also came from other pilot groups like ACA and AWAC that previously lost the flying.

Don't get me wrong, I don't blame the CHQ new hires anymore than I blame the GJ new hires. They did not instigate this! It is management that continues to implement their "divide and conquer strategy" handing flying to the lowest bidder.

Instead of fighting amongst ourselves, we should think long and hard as to how to challenge this Mgmt strategy. As I mentioned before, we should encourage ALPA and IBT to come up with universal airline standards for work rules and universal standards for compensation based on the number of seats flown. This is the only way I see to stop this continued race to the bottom.

Good luck guys!

Moderator reviewed.

 

[SkyBoy1981]

Even with all of the undercutting that has gone on amongst regional airlines in the past, how many times have 700 pilots been left without jobs because 25% of their airplanes were transferred over to be flown by a different regional airline that will do it for less money? To the best of my knowledge, it hasn't happened before. I'm getting tired of hearing about how it has been happening everywhere else and now it is XJT's turn. No, this HASN'T been going on everywhere else.

 

[Tex-Ex]

That's a pretty hostile thread title for claiming to not blame anybody... peace love and can't we just all get along and unite against management...etc.

Man, you used both "CHQ scabs" and "GJ"... but you're not trying to stir the pot?

-Tex-

 

[TCBKING]

And before you guys start, I don't think CHQ new hires are Scabs, it is simply a thought provoking tiltle!

Although I think is sucks, the fact is that ExpressJet has lost 69 aircraft worth of flying to a lower bidder. They will, unfortunately for the ExpressJet pilots, furlough about 700 of their pilots. Positions that will be taken by new hire CHQ pilots. And, there is no other market for the ERJ's but CHQ.

Doesn't that remind anyone of the GJ deal? There are some differences, but unlike the GJ deal where the pilots at TSA were deprived of growth, here CHQ pilots are taking the jobs of soon to be furloughed ExpressJet pilots.

Seems to me that is a little more serious than what happened at TSA/GJ, where no one lost their job and new positions were created, although those positions also came from other pilot groups like ACA and AWAC that previously lost the flying.

Don't get me wrong, I don't blame the CHQ new hires anymore than I blame the GJ new hires. They did not instigate this! It is management that continues to implement their "divide and conquer strategy" handing flying to the lowest bidder.

Instead of fighting amongst ourselves, we should think long and hard as to how to challenge this Mgmt strategy. As I mentioned before, we should encourage ALPA and IBT to come up with universal airline standards for work rules and universal standards for compensation based on the number of seats flown. This is the only way I see to stop this continued race to the bottom.

Good luck guys!

Your way off base. This is not even in the same Ballpark as Gjts. As for the pilots taking other pilots jobs, I for one am tired of hearing that. Aside from GJ and maybe Mesa, Its not the pilots, its the MGMT doing the bidding. Its the MGMT aquiring the routes and the airplanes. The only thing we can do is say NO to any more of MGMTS demands. PERIOD. Some of us may lose our jobs in the process, but whats the difference if we are all continually being furloughed, downsized, and moved around to new bases every other year? I work at AWAC. We made something like 90 million plus last year. They have already tried to say they cant afford to grow with their employee costs.I would rather see the airline liquidate than accept any more paycuts, for empty promises. As a matter of fact I wont accept a paycut for guaranteed promises. They can sell a yacht or two, and use that to grow. All of these companies are making money. They are hiding it well, using Judges and arbitrators that are NOT on the side of the pilots, and Bluffing everyone with the DOOM and GLOOM scenarios. Do You know of any upper MGMT A HOLES that will give up their fat paychecks just to say I told you so? There will have to be sacrifices made in this industry for us to turn the corner. Maybe some pilot groups will grow a spine an decide that they are a valued employee and refuse to work for garbage payrates. If they are doing it to get the experience so they can move on, they are only hanging themselves for the future. Yes Mesa, Im talking to you in Particular. GJ can just go and F themselves. I wont waste my time with them. As for the rest of the pilot groups, Gettin on your pedestals and Barking about Pilots taking Pilots Jobs, bring it down a notch.

 

[Stifler's Mom]

Hey, who put the turd in the punch bowl? jetfo did.

 

[EMBPILOT1]

Maybe you need to look up the def. of a scab and repost. I don't work for CHQ, but to even have the two in the same sentence is wrong. Last I checked, BB did not go to the pilot group and ask for pay consesions in order to get other flying. This sounds like pure and simple management decision. GO and protest over at HQ if you don't like it.

 

[Dave Benjamin]

is jetfo brain dead?

Maybe your thread should be titled "capitalism sucks." CHQ pilots are flying under a union negotiated contract and did not take any concessions to obtain XJet flying. Your complaint would be better directed to CO managment rather than the pilots of CHQ. When will guys like you figure out that pilots do not bid on the flying? Pilot groups do not calculate profit margins and negotiate codeshares or fee for departure flying. That's all done by managment not pilots. CO, like many other airlines wants to diversify their feed arrangments and get away from having most of their eggs in the ExpressJet basket. Noone at CHQ is a scab in any sense of the word. Here's something else to consider. How do you feel about flying routes that could have been served by mainline Continental pilots? Does that make you a scab?

If you don't like the way labor is continually losing power then you need to get people to vote for Democrats. There is a demonstrated connection between ALPA losing ground and GOP controlling the White House and the Congress. Read Flying the Line vols I and II so you can learn a bit about the history of labor relations in this industry before you spout off nonsense. The founder of ALPA once said "politics matters." His words were true then just as they are today.

I think you owe the CHQ guys an apology for throwing the scab word around so loosely.

If you're one of the ones facing furlough best of luck in your future endeavors.

 

[cobalt]

Although I think is sucks, the fact is that ExpressJet has lost 69 aircraft worth of flying to a lower bidder. They will, unfortunately for the ExpressJet pilots, furlough about 700 of their pilots. Positions that will be taken by new hire CHQ pilots.

do you know all the facts? Expressjet has lost 69 aircraft worth of flying FOR CONTINENTAL. the 69 are expressjet's to keep. there is no talk of furloughs, and a new perm bid just came out with many more upgrades. they have until the end of sept. to announce plans for the planes. so chill out till then.

 

[beechcowboy]

And before you guys start, I don't think CHQ new hires are Scabs, it is simply a thought provoking tiltle!

Although I think is sucks, the fact is that ExpressJet has lost 69 aircraft worth of flying to a lower bidder. They will, unfortunately for the ExpressJet pilots, furlough about 700 of their pilots. Positions that will be taken by new hire CHQ pilots. And, there is no other market for the ERJ's but CHQ.

Doesn't that remind anyone of the GJ deal? There are some differences, but unlike the GJ deal where the pilots at TSA were deprived of growth, here CHQ pilots are taking the jobs of soon to be furloughed ExpressJet pilots.

Seems to me that is a little more serious than what happened at TSA/GJ, where no one lost their job and new positions were created, although those positions also came from other pilot groups like ACA and AWAC that previously lost the flying.

Don't get me wrong, I don't blame the CHQ new hires anymore than I blame the GJ new hires. They did not instigate this! It is management that continues to implement their "divide and conquer strategy" handing flying to the lowest bidder.

Instead of fighting amongst ourselves, we should think long and hard as to how to challenge this Mgmt strategy. As I mentioned before, we should encourage ALPA and IBT to come up with universal airline standards for work rules and universal standards for compensation based on the number of seats flown. This is the only way I see to stop this continued race to the bottom.

Good luck guys!

700 furloughs, well aren't you a ball of joy. This is extremely presumptious of you. First, none of us know why CAL mgmt made the decision they made. XJT offered up some very cost effective, risk sharing oriented deals to CAL... CAL did not want any part of it. I was privy to some of these details, and they were very fair. I can only assume that diversification was CAL's ultimate goal from start. There was very little loyalty to the carrier that has done so well for them in the past and present, and this is what I find most disheartening. I think most Jet Linker's would agree. I honestly don't believe that we ever were going to win the CAL flying for the 69 a/c capacity. It was, in essence, and exercise in futility. Finally, because I was privy to some of the specifics in our CPA proposals, I can also tell you that there are multiple deals being played out in the background as we speak. Announcements are pending final closure of said deals. What does this mean for all of us at XJT? Well, I am optomistic that we will finally achieve diversification in our codeshare, open ourselves up to new growth that we wouldn't have had we stayed exclusively with CAL, and eventually (time frame to be determined) introduce a different a/c into our fleet. All of this is, for lack of a better word, uncomfortable, because all that XJT has ever known is CAL. I feel uncomfortable, even with the inside knowledge that our future looks very promising. It still gives you pause and makes you think about how difficult it is to protect a decent quality of life in this industry (both financially and emotionally). As far as furloughs, I don't think you have a clue about what you are talking about. You just want to stir up discontent. You don't see mainline CAL, United, US Air, Delta, etc. pilots on here bashing each other and making rediculous presumptions. For all of you on this board who bash, berate, and ask stupid questions like who's plane is better... for your sake and others, grow up. Do you really think anyone is taking you seriously? For all of us in the regional piloting ranks, start acting like a professional or get out of the industry.

 

[ASH]

EXACTLY. It is highly probable that not a single XJT job will be lost. Chill.

XJT Mgmnt has got something up their sleeve. XJT will be fine.

 

[Mike man]

I'd bet jetfo would take a job at JetBlue though. JetBlue is more like GJ and CHQ is like GJ...and few people think that JetBlue people are that nasty word.

 

[ASH]

To add to that, I do firmly believe that the ultimate goal of this was diversification. Dangerous to have all your feed in one carrier. I think cost was not primary here. CHQ is more than TSA, and MESA.

CAL wanted to lessen their exposure, and nuetralize risk by diversifying their feed. While it stinks for XJT, it probably is VIEWED as safe by mgmnt.

 

[Swaayze]

Good grief. This is no different than what any regional has done to the mainlines in the last 15 years. No one is a scab here, not even Freedom/GJ pilots, so quit spitting out that word. It's just indicative of parasitic management in a functional free market (like it or NOT).

 

[Standby 1]

700 furloughs, well aren't you a ball of joy. This is extremely presumptious of you. First, none of us know why CAL mgmt made the decision they made. XJT offered up some very cost effective, risk sharing oriented deals to CAL... CAL did not want any part of it. I was privy to some of these details, and they were very fair. I can only assume that diversification was CAL's ultimate goal from start. There was very little loyalty to the carrier that has done so well for them in the past and present, and this is what I find most disheartening. I think most Jet Linker's would agree. I honestly don't believe that we ever were going to win the CAL flying for the 69 a/c capacity. It was, in essence, and exercise in futility. Finally, because I was privy to some of the specifics in our CPA proposals, I can also tell you that there are multiple deals being played out in the background as we speak. Announcements are pending final closure of said deals. What does this mean for all of us at XJT? Well, I am optomistic that we will finally achieve diversification in our codeshare, open ourselves up to new growth that we wouldn't have had we stayed exclusively with CAL, and eventually (time frame to be determined) introduce a different a/c into our fleet. All of this is, for lack of a better word, uncomfortable, because all that XJT has ever known is CAL. I feel uncomfortable, even with the inside knowledge that our future looks very promising. It still gives you pause and makes you think about how difficult it is to protect a decent quality of life in this industry (both financially and emotionally). As far as furloughs, I don't think you have a clue about what you are talking about. You just want to stir up discontent. You don't see mainline CAL, United, US Air, Delta, etc. pilots on here bashing each other and making rediculous presumptions. For all of you on this board who bash, berate, and ask stupid questions like who's plane is better... for your sake and others, grow up. Do you really think anyone is taking you seriously? For all of us in the regional piloting ranks, start acting like a professional or get out of the industry.

I'm in shock that such a rational, well-written and ACCURATE post would even be allowed on this forum. I'm thinking I should print it out for posterity.

Nice job!

 

[8HourPilot]

GJ was non union when it was started....thread over.

 

[jetfo]

Maybe your thread should be titled "capitalism sucks." CHQ pilots are flying under a union negotiated contract and did not take any concessions to obtain XJet flying. Your complaint would be better directed to CO managment rather than the pilots of CHQ. When will guys like you figure out that pilots do not bid on the flying? Pilot groups do not calculate profit margins and negotiate codeshares or fee for departure flying. That's all done by managment not pilots. CO, like many other airlines wants to diversify their feed arrangments and get away from having most of their eggs in the ExpressJet basket. Noone at CHQ is a scab in any sense of the word. Here's something else to consider. How do you feel about flying routes that could have been served by mainline Continental pilots? Does that make you a scab?

...

I think you owe the CHQ guys an apology for throwing the scab word around so loosely.

If you're one of the ones facing furlough best of luck in your future endeavors.

Maybe you should re-read my post. I specifically stated that I do not think that CHQ pilots are scabs, nor do I think GJ pilots are scabs. Unlike some others on this board, I do know what a scab is.

Furthermore, I agree with you that management is making these decisions and not the pilots.

The outcome still sucks and we should get together and think of something we can collectively do to stop the destruction of this formerly woerthwhile profession.

We are never going to stop pilots that are looking for a job from taking a job that's offered.

But, what we may be able to do together is to make these tactics so unattractive to management that they will cease and desist in further attemts at whipsawing.

Frankly, I don't see how money is being saved by dividing the Coex operations. Now you have two management teams running two separate airlines. The coordination of schedules is doubly difficult...

And, how much lower can you drive the wages before the pilot mills start closing when it becomes more attractive to go to truck driving school. Which it is probably now.

 

[beechcowboy]

AGREED. I think most of the folks on this forum are too young to really know what a scab is. I never dealt with unionization until I came to XJT. Colgan didn't have one, and I can tell you from 1st hand experience that XJT is worlds better. Whether that is union related, I am not 100% sure. I can tell you this, a scab is someone who crosses a picket line during a legal strike... end of story. CHQ are not scabs, however; there mgmt has brokered a deal whereby they will provide the service that XJT currently provides to CAL at a cheaper rate. Part of this cheaper rate is cheaper labor, I would guess. So, one could deduce that CHQ won the contract b/c of cheaper labor costs, which could be further deduced as lowering the bar. Still, I really believe this was less a cost issue and more about diversifying. I do not welcome CHQ into my backyard, but realistically, we may be in their backyard before long... who really knows. I have a million theories as to how to address this regional shuffle epidemic, whereby we all shuffle between codeshares every couple years. In the process we give ourselves coronaries worrying about how to care for our children and maintain our mortgage payments. Its not right, but there are so many forces in effect here... which one do we attack first: true unionization, fuel prices, whipsawing games, attacks on mainline scope? I don't know. For the majority of CHQ guys, I have no ill will, but for those immature pilots, CHQ, XJT, or any other, that like to spout off on these forums about scabs and taking flying, and bragging rights, and all that other crap. Please find something better to do with your time. When you are ready to sit down at the table, face to face, and talk about solving the problems at hand, give me a call. By the way, does anyone really believe that another pilot group WANTS to work for less?

 

[jetfo]

700 furloughs, well aren't you a ball of joy. This is extremely presumptious of you. First, none of us know why CAL mgmt made the decision they made. XJT offered up some very cost effective, risk sharing oriented deals to CAL... CAL did not want any part of it. I was privy to some of these details, and they were very fair. I can only assume that diversification was CAL's ultimate goal from start. There was very little loyalty to the carrier that has done so well for them in the past and present, and this is what I find most disheartening. I think most Jet Linker's would agree. I honestly don't believe that we ever were going to win the CAL flying for the 69 a/c capacity. It was, in essence, and exercise in futility. Finally, because I was privy to some of the specifics in our CPA proposals, I can also tell you that there are multiple deals being played out in the background as we speak. Announcements are pending final closure of said deals. What does this mean for all of us at XJT? Well, I am optomistic that we will finally achieve diversification in our codeshare, open ourselves up to new growth that we wouldn't have had we stayed exclusively with CAL, and eventually (time frame to be determined) introduce a different a/c into our fleet. All of this is, for lack of a better word, uncomfortable, because all that XJT has ever known is CAL. I feel uncomfortable, even with the inside knowledge that our future looks very promising. It still gives you pause and makes you think about how difficult it is to protect a decent quality of life in this industry (both financially and emotionally). As far as furloughs, I don't think you have a clue about what you are talking about. You just want to stir up discontent. You don't see mainline CAL, United, US Air, Delta, etc. pilots on here bashing each other and making rediculous presumptions.

First, I do not want to stir up discontent. You may well know more than I do about what is going on, but the fact is 69 aircraft of flying is going to CHQ "for diversification" as you said and that is certainly not a plus.

While there might be some future possibilities at ExpressJet, if the 69 a/c leave with no replacement flying, that does mean about 700 pilots will face furlough. Perhaps that can be averted and for the sake of those pilots, I hope it can.

It would have been much better, IMHO, had the flying stayed at ExpressJet. Both for the ExpressJet pilots and for the industry as a whole. In fact it would have been even better had ExpressJet remained wholly owned by CAL with every pilot having a CAL seniority number.

 

[flyer172r]

CHQ wasn't formed to directly hurt a pilot group, the same cannot be said for GJ. Whether you think CHQ is screwing over XJT guys right now or not, when CHQ was first formed it wasn't meant to screw anyone over. CHQ and GJ are not the same thing by a long shot.

 

[beechcowboy]

Oh yeah, and NO, GJ was not the same thing. That was a deplorable mgmt strategy to create an airline that would operate at a cheaper labor cost, with less attractive work rules than TSA. It worked, some people wanted to fly the 700 so badly that they were willing to buy into the new company. Personally, I think they should be ashamed, and I don't respect them. I don't know all the details of the TSA / GJ arrangement, but from talking with TSA guys and gals, sounds like it was a very raw deal. Legal, I don't know, but ethical, absolutely not. HOWEVER, this situation with CHQ is not even in the same ballpark. Don't link the CHQ guys with GJ folks... that is not fair.