CHQ passes by 95%!

[ERJpusher]

i'm not trying to defend anything... I really don't care what you think.

Stress must really be getting to you FDBs at CoEx. I didn't really hear anything from you guys for the longest time and now all I see is slander. I used to be supportive of your negotiations, but now I could care less.

 

[Cracker]

I'm rubber, you'r glue...

Just hope I don't meet you on an overnight in a hotel bar. Get a life, brother.

 

[ERJpusher]

I bet my average salary for my career at CHQ will be much higher than at CoEx. How many decades until upgrade at CoEx? Everyone on our current seniority list will probably be captains in 2 years. I'd rather be getting captain pay quickly than FO pay forever.

 

[brew3departure]

It goes on and on and on...(and on)

If you're going to point fingers, where does it stop? Do you point fingers at Airtran, SWA and JetBlue? Or, how about ATA - if memory serves, their 737 pilots don't make as much as their counterparts at United, Airways or Delta.

Looking at the traffic on this board over the last two years, it's filled with posts by many people who want to work for these companies. Myself included, one day. According to most of the logic I've seen on this thread, though, these four companies are the anti-christ, right? Lowering pilot salaries, or, pardon me, lowering the almighty _bar_ for everyone.

For those of you who aren't pointing your finger there, you point at Mesa, or CHQ, or Trans States, or Skywest. What about Skyway? Their pilots took concessions and their F/O's are at the absolute bottom of the payscale, only above Great Lakes. But, hey, they were at the bottom of the scale _before_ concessions. Shut the place down, go on strike. All 220 of them are *hit for brains, for _not_ doing that, I guess...

Or, the darling of the regional airline industry - Air Wisconsin. Best contract, best work rules, best pay rates...guess what - your major partner is in trouble, and thus, concessions for you guys too.

Do I wish concessions on anyone? Do I want anyone to get furloughed? Absolutely not! Do I give a *amn about what the ERJ driver at CoEx is making versus what I am? Personally, I don't. It's none of my ****amn business what you make. And to the CoEx pilots - best of luck to you. You know, I really do hope you get an industry leading contract. If you do, the peanut gallery on Flightinfo will do nothing but stroke your ego and sing your praises - each day you put the uniform on, you can be assured that you and you alone are among the best pilots in the industry, and that you have single-handedly saved the aviation industry as we know it.

Come on. Please. Everybody wants to get to the next level. And for those who don't, they want to be well compensated for their years of service. You can rinse and repeat that for any skilled labor job, not just aviation.

Each situation at each airline is different. I don't like the Mesa contract, I don't like the fact that it has 8 days off, I don't like the pay rates. Answer me this, though - if Mesa votes _down_ their infamous contract, all of the terminated CCAir pilots are still on unemployment - yes or no? And don't let me speak for them, perhaps the CCAir pilots hate the new Mesa contract, I don't know...but they do have their jobs back. All of you who are so quick to bash Mesa, perhaps you should think about it from this perspective.

Whoever the idiot was who said that Continental could have used a few pilots like us in the 80's - quite a bold statement. Did you think of that all by yourself? Any time you bring in the "s" word, you're playing with fire. I absolutely fail to see how that has any relevance here, but ... you said it, I didn't. Do you feel better now, having said that?

And to the other nimrod quoting Transportation Security Adminstration payrates - thank you, sir, for clarifying that. If I had been a party to that vital piece of information, trust me in that I would tried to sway the votes of CHQ pilots - "Wait, you're not going to make as much as that screener there - vote the contract down." Childish.

Reading crap like this angers me in the same way that "stealing routes" does. The mere existence of regional airlines at all is where that all started - but that's for a different thread.

The folks at CHQ got raises. They managed to stop Freedom II, and got major bennies in health and some work rule improvements. It was not concessionary. End of story.

Anyone who disagrees, that's what makes this country great, and for the record, I still don't give a *amn what you're making. If you're making more than I am, good for you. I really do mean that.

-brew3

 

[BlueCanoe]

Why is it that pilots of "Wholly-owned subsidiaries" are bashing?

Let's look at one thing. When you were "Acquired", why weren't you integrated? NWA bought Republic, I don't see any DC-9's running around with "Operated by Republic" on them. I don't see any US Airways 767's with a "Operated by Piedmont". I don't see any AA MD-80's with a "Operated by Reno Airlines" or "Operated by TWA". I don't see any Delta 737-800 (or 727's) out of the MAT at LGA with "Operated by Eastern". Yet I see plenty of "Comair", "ASA", "Eagle" "Continental Express by Express Jet", "Piedmont", "Allegheny", etc.

Do I have to go on? You nay-sayers, who appear all to fly for "Wholly-owned Subsidiaries" (yet I can be wrong, as I'm sure you'll point out), talk of cojones. YOU (yes I'm calling you out, you cheap shot artists) don't have the balls to force integration. You are lowering the bar, if I may say so. We are CHQ/MESA/TSA/SkyW or whoever. You are Delta, USAirways, Continental and American Employees. You allowed your company to create a C scale. If you work for a "wholly-owned subsidiary", you dropped the bar, Chuck.

We should quit our jobs? You should quit yours. Your parent company gives you good money and good bennies (in comparison to other regional operations), because they know most of you will go somewhere else. If you don't leave, you will never get to the other part of the company. They give you hush money, and keep you off the mainline seniority list.

You guys are sad. You did accomplish something, though. You won the race to the bottom. Not of your "peers", but to the bottom of your company. You are doing the same work as other people in similar positions at your company, but are treated as substandard. You will not ever change that. It's too late. At least at the independents, there is one list, one contract.

 

[Mr Hat]

I used to be supportive of your negotiations, but now I could care less.

Why bother, you're crappy contract is already signed.

I bet my average salary for my career at CHQ will be much higher than at CoEx. How many decades until upgrade at CoEx? Everyone on our current seniority list will probably be captains in 2 years. I'd rather be getting captain pay quickly than FO pay forever.

HA! You JUST caught up with our current contract! It wasnt you're 50 seat pay rates that floored me as much as your 90-100 seat pay. How many seats does a 737-500 have? Do you even know? Why are you less of a pilot that you deserve LESS than HALF what a 737-500 guy makes? You're not! Thats the point, you deserve to be on par with other guys doing the SAME job with the SAME **CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED** seats for crying out loud! Cant you see that? The 50 seat pay SHOULD be 737 pay interpolated down to 50 seats, not BE1900 pay with 50 seats! We arent even going to get that much but we will at least TRY to get a little closer, the airplane can support it. We arent into destroying our company with excessive pay but we want what is fair! We love our company and we want to be successful however we are sick of being pawns to the rest of the industries "Wage Fare Wars" which is what it has become in the last 5 years.

Just hope I don't meet you on an overnight in a hotel bar. Get a life, brother.

THIS guy is going to be a Captain in 2 years? Sheesh, leave the threats out of it and debate like an adult.

If you're going to point fingers, where does it stop? Do you point fingers at Airtran, SWA and JetBlue? Or, how about ATA - if memory serves, their 737 pilots don't make as much as their counterparts at United, Airways or Delta.

That is completly different, that's competition. The issue at the "Regional" level is that major airline managements are working together to whipsaw groups against eachother in order to rachet down wages that simply go into the upper managements pockets. They are OUTSOURCING jet flying that SHOULD be at the major (Savings #1) to the LOWEST bidding regional (savings #2) knowing full well that WE know that if we sign off on a lower paying contract, we wont loose our flying. It is a scare tactic pure and simple. Besides, ATA, Airtran, JetBlue and SWA do not get paid NEARLY as low as we do when you compair their pay to other jet pilots pay. I'd also venture to say that most of those guys except Aitran are paid differently than pilots at other carriers so while it appears that their pay is lower if you look simply at hourly wages, they are actually paid industry average pay when you look at other perks such as time and a half for flying over 70 hours (JetBlue) or if you calculate "Trip Pay" to hourly pay (SWA). Plus all the profit sharing and bonuses....you wind up being compairable to the other majors. We at ExpressJet feel the same way, I dont need to be paid the HIGHEST in the industry, I just want whats fair and right now pay at the regionals is not fair. Its not about being better than the CHQ pilots or even the Mesa pilots, its about being on the same page.

 

[Mr Hat]

Do I have to go on? You nay-sayers, who appear all to fly for "Wholly-owned Subsidiaries" (yet I can be wrong, as I'm sure you'll point out), talk of cojones. YOU (yes I'm calling you out, you cheap shot artists) don't have the balls to force integration. You are lowering the bar, if I may say so. We are CHQ/MESA/TSA/SkyW or whoever. You are Delta, USAirways, Continental and American Employees. You allowed your company to create a C scale. If you work for a "wholly-owned subsidiary", you dropped the bar, Chuck.

Okay, when we were bought by CAL, we were IACP...no ALPA merger policy and at the time we didnt have any jets, they were operated as seperate companies so there was no integration and the ALPA merger policy wouldnt have worked anyway. When we did become operationally integrated we were in the process of voting in ALPA, we were trying for a Single Seniority List also. We got snubbed by our union who said "Just get ALPA on property and we will get the SSL after" Well, it never happened. The Scabs at Continental decided that Express caused the ALPA merger and started a war on us trying to kick us out of the CAL MEC because they were pissed about ALPA. It took a while but we finally squashed that one, then it was time to get going on the SSL again....CAL sells ExpressJet off and makes it 10 times harder, we are no longer a part of CAL and the FTA is terminated (recently, we were IPO'd a while ago but CAL still retained controlling interest which is why so many CAL pilots flowed back to Express)

Our Negotiating committee tried to work out a way for a single list recently but found that we do not have the support to get it (The CAL side is interested in their retirement, not a single list) so we are not going for it. We ARE though trying for an ENHANCED Flow through agreement, that will hopefully bridge the gap and maybe in the future we can achieve a single list.
I've been involved in the integration fight for quite a while. I think Comair did an outstanding job and got snuffed by the Delta MEC and ALPA National. They are operationally integrated but ALPA found that they wernt. I guess its a matter of opinion.

What have you done?

 

[BlueCanoe]

What have you done?

Laugh. I don't work for a "Wholly-Owned Subsidiary". I love how ya'll get in our grill, yet everytime this comes up, I hear the same excuses with no results why wholly-owned's aren't integrated. Heard it with USAir Express, Eagle and DCI WO. Same story, no results.

Knock my contract. Knock my company. I may be a 3rd class citizen to you, but my company treats us all the same. We don't have a "Basement Division" for pilots, FA's or rampers.

I'm on my company's A-Scale. Are you?

 

[Mesa Lifer]

Brew 3, awesome post. Unfortunately the 'hotheads' on this thread will never see the light. I for one would love for us to all stick together throughout the industry but when your OWN personal livelihood is threatened by the likes of Freedom or whatever force, you'd be suprised what you'll swallow. And we at Mesa never get the credit for saving some of our own (the CCAir gang). And for those of you that say they would have rather been on the street than take our Sh!tty contract, how come most of them are back at work at Mesa?

We did our part, and CHQ did theirs. Funny to me how the guys screaming the loudest at how Mesa and CHQ have screwed the industry were also the first to take concessions. Why not just shut the company down and grow some balls like we should have at Mesa? "But we had to vote it in because of Mesa!" Well, we had to vote in our POS to get the CCAir guys back and stop Freedom.

Funny to me how the loud mouths here cannot see that and just resort to bashing. Little do you guys realize how stupid you make yourselves look.

Just my two cents.

-ML

 

[GFunk20]

Guys, come on, give it up.

CHQ is a done deal now. There is no changing anything, Lets move forward.

 

[TWAER]

Bla Bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla!

That's all I see when I read this board. Still after all these weeks I read the ignorance from people who don't have a clue about contracts at companies that they don't work for. Tell me FLYR, how did this contract "bring down the industry"? I have been at CHQ for quite some time and guess what? My quality of life just went up! And you know what else? My brand new FO's quality of life just went up also. We have a much better contract now than we had before. Is it as good as your greatly superior COEX contract? I don't know and I don't care. And you know what, nobody else at CHQ cares either. You know, I think if you get a better contract than the one you just had, you are doing OK. Did we get a Comair contract. No we didn't. But do you really think Comair would get a Comair contract today. If you think they would, I have a really nice car I would like to sell you.

Good luck to you on getting your BIG payraise in your next contract. I guess if you don't get it YOU will be responsible for bringing down the industry.

 

[Cracker]

Hey Flyr,

I wasn't threatening a fight. My wirey butt would probably get rolled on. I'm just not going to buy you any drinks. Didn't mean to get your g-string into a bunch. Get a life, brother.

 

[Looking4Traffic]

They're Laughing At Us

I spoke to a friend of mine the other day. His occupation isn't important but his spouse is in upper-level managment at a well known national carrier. And you know what he told me? They're laughing at us. That's right. The guys who write our checks are laughing at us. They love the fact that mainline pilots despise 'regional' pilots and they're delighted that regional pilots squabble with other regional pilots. Considerable time and money is spent by management to ensure that they have the upper-hand in labor negotiations and they describe pilots as "scared" and "reactionary", not "strong" or "proactive."

In short, management would love to read this current thread because, like many others I've read, anger is directed back-and-forth across pilot groups instead of being directed at the source of the problem: employers who will stop at nothing to reduce labor costs and a complete lack of unity in the community of professional pilots to put an end to unjust wages.

I'm proud to be a professional pilot but I'm embarrassed that my friend is right -- we're so busy worrying about our own plate of food that we're missing the laughter coming from the kitchen.

 

[belchfire]

AA airplanes operated by TWA

Look closer...white sticker, red letters, they used to be next to the main cabin
entrance...now down by the nose strake on the left side, (MD 8x's) and I quote TWA LLC an American Airlines Company. Not that AA has lived up to the things they told the FTC and protected the TWA jobs and the STL hub.

Not that a 45 min flight gave me time to read all of a 3/4 inch thick packet, but it is one he!! of a lot better than what I have, better than Mesa, and if you have better than CHQ got, well, look forward to your retirement! Since when do rj crews deserve a mainline payscale?

 

[Mr Hat]

Knock my contract. Knock my company. I may be a 3rd class citizen to you, but my company treats us all the same. We don't have a "Basement Division" for pilots, FA's or rampers.

Actually, You're not a second class citizen to me, although you obviously believe that you deserve second class citizen pay. Thats the point. You're job is NO different than that of a Continental, American, Delta, Southwest, United, USair pilot. If you are flying jets, you're job is exactly the same, dont you deserve pay that is consumerate with theirs? Jumpseat on a 737 then tell me what the difference is between that and what you do. I dont know what kind of flying you do at CHQ but this week I am going from EWR to BHM to IAH to DSM...overnight then DSM, EWR done. DSM-EWR is blocked to 2:30 minutes although it usually takes 3 hours. Our longest right now is EWR to Kansas City. If we could do transcons, we would, I guarentee it. When I got hired, I flew the BE1900 from CLE to places like FNT, DTW, ERI, PIT... connecting smaller communities to CLE to get on big CAL and go wherever in the world they were going. Now, Im not feeding CAL anymore, instead, I do CAL flying for them. Im not happy about it, CAL flying should be done by CAL pilots but they failed to get a good scope clause that allowed my company to expand to 275 jets with another 100 on option. The industry has changed. These jets are no longer feeding mainline, they are a major part of mainline. They arent "Turbo props without props" so why do they pay like turbo props? Because thats the way they were sold to the major airline pilots of the 90's, "Dont worry, they are just turbo-props without props"
So they took ATR pay and up'ed it to ATR pay if the ATR had 50 seats.....not 737 pay if the 737 had 50 seats. So the farce continues, why? Because we allow it. When these other "regionals" sign contracts that allow them to pay turbo prop pay to jet pilots, they make it extremely difficult for others to break that chain. Our management points to Mesa and says look....and look at CHQ! Why should you be any different?
So why all the anger? Because your contract just made it harder for us to help the rest of our ALPA brothers to break the chain and raise the bar. Like I said, I want fair pay, not the highest pay.

Since when do rj crews deserve a mainline payscale?

What "Region" do these "Regional Jets" fly in? They are Jets, the term "regional jets" is a marketing term and its there to make them seem insignificant so they dont have to pay "RJ" crews like they do real airline pilots flying real jets. And it looks like you bought it. We have gate agents who say "Oh yeah we get 3 Express flights and 1 Jet in here nowadays" They dont even acknowlege that the E145 is a Jet!

Looking4Traffic, Nice post. Yes they are laughing at us. All the way to the bank!

And guys, you really need to research you're history. NO SELF RESPECTING ALPA PILOT WOULDNT SAY "I DONT CARE WHAT YOU THINK OF OUR NEW CONTRACT"
ALPA is about equal pay for equal work, read it, its there in black and white. Read you're code of ethics and the constitution and bylaws. You also need to read Flying the Line Vol I and II. You're contract is you're contribution to the furthering of our profession and it is you're contribution to you're industry. These concessionary contracts are dragging the rest of us down, and that WAS a concessionary contract. Yes its true that the MAJOR airlines are loosing money, most "regional airlines are not, they are making money hand over fist due to major airline outsourcing their expensive flying to us because we are really inexpensive (because we are paid like McDonalds managers)
Concessionary contracts are really not necessary.

BTW: This misconception needs to stop, there is no such airline as "Continental Express" we are ExpressJet and we are an independant company, we are NOT wholly owned by CAL. Used to be but not anymore. That doesnt mean that we change our expectations.

Also, no need to get nasty, Im not slamming any of you. I just disagree with you and I wish you would see that you are worth much more than 95% of you voted for.

 

[jumppilot]

You scumbags make me sick.

I find it funny that most of the people I fly with (CHQ) bitch less than the people on this board who don't even work for us!

I think people are losing sight of the big picture. A regional pilot's job is easy. It is ridiculously easy. Making over $50,000/year (3rd year capt.) is quite a bit of money to be making. Did anyone ever stop comparing our pay to the majors (who are screwed now due to their wildly inflated pay rates) and start thinking realistically? Spare me the "I'm married and have 3 kids...I'm a 1st year FO blah blah blah"...

You signed up for this job knowing what you'd make. You don't like it? Leave. Go do something else...No one is making you stay...Oh, that's right, you love aviation too much and couldn't comtemplate a job on "the outside". Whatever.

Sorry for the rant.

 

[belchfire]

it is a question of economics...
the CEO of colgan, for instance, don't make
what the ceo of AA makes...you can't
generate as much revenue with a rj as
you can with a 717 or whatever.

The Payscale at SW and AirTran isn't what
it is at AA, NWA, DA, etc...but SW and Airtran
are in the black.

I fly all the time, eight legs sometimes, no
autopilot ever (js 32). Do that all day
(some of you have, I know). It is hella
more "work" (sometimes we don't ever
even break out on top) than letting
george fly the **CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED** approaches, but I
don't get even what my company promised
when I got hired(pay frozen)...But there is no
way we can generate the rev that a rj
can. I would like to get what mngmt said
I would be getting at this point "I want my
two dollars!".

But there is no way a regional line can pay
737 wages to a rj pilot...the cashflow isn't
there...get a grip!

BTW...I seen her in the paint...nice!

And what the he!!, all contracts are
"concessionary", that's why they take so
long to "negotiate".

I don't know of any rj's that can go
LGA to LAX...the DC-9 was the original
rj...900nm range...but watch out, I
bet the CRJ 2500 is coming!

PS...I truly am not pro management...ya know
to tell if management is lieing? Their lips are moving!

 

[Flea]

I find it funny that most of the people I fly with (CHQ) bitch less than the people on this board who don't even work for us!

You are wrong about that. There are plenty of people on this board that don't work for CHQ that support you, and the piece of garbage you are defending. They are know as Mesa pilots.

I think people are losing sight of the big picture. A regional pilot's job is easy. It is ridiculously easy. Making over $50,000/year (3rd year capt.) is quite a bit of money to be making.

This is what you call the big picture?!? You really haven't got a clue do you? Try reading the posts again by Mr. Hat. And, pay attention this time!

The thing about the 95% of CHQ pilots (and ?% of Mesa) is that they know they sold out to the rest of the ALPA group. But, rather than admit that they are panzies, they will defend their actions 'til the end. You guys have to learn that you MUST tow your end of the ALPA rope.

Mr. Hat, Flyr, there is no convincing them.

Peace.

 

[BlueCanoe]

Actually, You're not a second class citizen to me...You're job is NO different than that of a Continental, American, Delta, Southwest, United, USair pilot. If you are flying jets, you're job is exactly the same, dont you deserve pay that is consumerate with theirs?...They dont even acknowlege that the E145 is a Jet!...NO SELF RESPECTING ALPA PILOT WOULDNT SAY "I DONT CARE WHAT YOU THINK OF OUR NEW CONTRACT"...ALPA is about equal pay for equal work, read it, its there in black and white...BTW: This misconception needs to stop, there is no such airline as "Continental Express" we are ExpressJet and we are an independant company, we are NOT wholly owned by CAL...Also, no need to get nasty, Im not slamming any of you. I just disagree with you and I wish you would see that you are worth much more than 95% of you voted for.

Let's invert the order.

1) You are slamming us. Don't lie. Didn't your mom teach you better? Cops and firemen are worth more than they're paid (and they REALLY put their lives on the line).

2) You are correct, there is no "Continental Express" There is XJet, an airline totally independent and free of CAL's control. Your multiple code-sharing partnerships prove this point.

3) ALPA is about equal pay for equal work, which is why they allow for "B-Scales" and allowed the regionals to form. Ask the DCI WO guys about this one. (Since you obviously don't know, CHQ is IBT)

4) No self-respecting ALPA pilot?? Whew, I have self respect, but I'm not an ALPA pilot. Is that possible, Plato?

5) They don't even acknowledge a E145 is a jet!! Is it? I haven't done a walk around in a while now. All I know is that it comes in 3 sizes - small, medium and large. If that really bothers you, a nice red sports car could help you in that area.

6) My job is the same if it has props or jets. Riddle me this: would my job be harder if I had a (substitute Tprop of your choice) or a ERJ on a 2 hr flight?

7) That's good I'm not a 2nd class citizen to you. You're not a 2nd class citizen to me. Actually, being a somewhat liberal individual, I don't believe anyone is a 2nd class citizen. However, WO employees are second class citizens to the Major Airline. Otherwise, you would have been integrated. However, I deserve to get paid based on my productivity, not some mythological self-worth exercise (which sounds very liberal from pilots, who are usually very conservative.)

8) Good luck on your contract. I hope you get Comair +.

 

[Saluki Dawg]

To all of my CALEX brethren, I would just like to urge all of you to get behind and support the CHQ pilots and their new contract. They are happy with what they got. I keep hearing them tell us that they aren't CALEX, Comair, ASA, or Eagle. They are absolutely right. CALEX is more than twice their size. That's nothing against CHQ, that's just a simple fact. We are exclusively with one airline and provide ALL of that airline's Small Jet feed. We have 218 Jets and over 2500 pilots. This gives us much more leverage than the CHQ pilots had over their respective management. So let's just keep our opinions to ourselves right now, whatever they may be and let our next contract speak for itself. Because I can assure you, with the unity that this pilot group has, we will have said everything that needs to be said when the time comes. And BTW, CHQ is not an ALPA carrier, they are represented by IBT I believe, so all things considered, I think that they probably got the best deal that they could with the Union they had representing them. Instead of insulting their pilot group, maybe we should be starting an ALPA educational campaign to get this pilot group represented by ALPA. And for the record, yes I do think that ALPA could have gotten CHQ a better contract than IBT because they only represent pilots, unlike the IBT.