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Chicago Tribune article on Age 60...

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The Prussian

Stecknadelkopf
Joined
Oct 24, 2005
Posts
671
GREAT RECORD. TIP-TOP HEALTH. TOO OLD.

By Jon Hilkevitch and John Schmeltzer
Tribune staff reporters

August 22, 2006

Richard Hinnenkamp, a United Airlines pilot for 37 years, recently aced the medical exam required of an airline captain every six months, bench-presses his body weight and outruns his son-in-law.

But because he turns 60 on Friday, he'll be forced to end his career at United due to a government-mandated precaution against taking a chance on his fitness.

That doesn't mean Hinnenkamp will turn in his wings. He plans to change uniforms, joining a foreign carrier as a pilot.

At a time when security concerns make it is easy to argue passengers would like to see the most experienced pilots at the controls, thousands are being forced out by what critics see as an arbitrary federal retirement rule not backed by any clear scientific data or accidents studies.

Hinnenkamp, who weighed offers from at least two carriers, is among a growing number of some of the nation's best-trained fliers joining such foreign carriers as Britain's Virgin Atlantic and Air India. Those airlines and many others are recruiting heavily in the United States in advance of a significant change in international regulations.

Starting in November, pilots up to age 65 working for foreign airlines will be allowed to command flights into the United States under an agreement the government fought to block. It was adopted this year by the International Civil Aviation Organization, which regulates international air travel and is relaxing its retirement rule to allow pilots to command an aircraft until age 65, as long as the co-pilot is no older than 59.

Despite more than 22,000 flight hours logged on aircraft ranging from warplanes over Southeast Asia to 747s doing the so-called Riesling run (a reference to the German wine) to Frankfurt, Hinnenkamp said he is about to suddenly become an unacceptable safety risk to the flying public, but only if he is at the controls of an American plane, according to FAA rules.

"The kid who replaces me on the seniority list at United will not have been born when I dropped bombs on Vietnam," the U.S. Navy veteran said.

"I am an American and I cannot land an American plane in my country," he added. "But I can change uniforms and land a 747 here in the U.S. for Air India, El Al or another foreign carrier."

Experts say relaxing the retirement age in the U.S. would save the nation's cash-strapped airlines hundreds of millions of dollars in training costs while also saving the government that much more in lost income taxes, Social Security payments and early payouts by the Pension Benefit Guaranty Board, which is taking over the failed pension plans of airlines.

The United States is one of the few countries in the world opposed to raising the retirement age of commercial pilots. The other notable exceptions are France and China, which also require pilots to step down at 60.

Eighty-three percent of the countries called for raising the retirement age in a 2003 survey conducted by the Montreal-based International Civil Aviation Organization.

U.S. aviation officials consistently have refused to reconsider the decision made in 1959 at the behest of American Airlines to force older pilots from the cockpit. It was not based on any scientific studies.

Marion Blakey, administrator or the Federal Aviation Administration, maintains the available safety data and latest medical research are insufficient for the agency to begin the steps necessary to change the age 60 rule. But Blakey said the FAA position on the issue has changed to "neutral."

"There is a lot of common sense, a lot of data showing that Americans are healthier, they are living longer," Blakey told pilots attending an air show in Oshkosh, Wis., last month.

The outcome may depend on what Congress does, she said.

Legislation is under review in Congress to increase the age limit in the United States to create a uniform worldwide standard. Similar bills have been introduced regularly since 1999.

Dr. Anthony Evans, chief of the aviation medicine section of the international aviation group, said the organization decided to increase the retirement age after a study group in 2003 determined older pilots could safely continue operating passenger planes.

"The flight safety risk of aging pilots has been reduced. People are living longer, and the ability of aviation medicine and medical science to make an assessment has improved," he said, noting incapacitation training is now mandatory.

In response to questions by a group called Airline Pilots Against Age Discrimination, FAA officials said age alone is not the best indicator of a pilot's proficiency.

"However, everyone would agree there comes a time when every pilot should stop flying," David Balloff, FAA assistant administrator for government and industry affairs, told the group.

Although no accidents have occurred during the many years foreign airlines have been allowed to enter the United States with co-pilots older than 60, more data is needed to determine if the risks increase due to the older pilots, Balloff said.

Some airlines, including El Al, Virgin Atlantic and a number of European carriers, employ pilots older than 60. But under U.S. rules they must turn over controls to the younger pilot before entering U.S. airspace. France refuses to allow flights over its territory by those carriers.

Younger pilots eager to move into the captain's seat, and obtain the higher pay, say the current retirement age is the way things should remain.

They say the generation of pilots soon to retire was helped by the age-60 rule when their careers advanced. These same older pilots want the retirement age extended so they can benefit again, say the younger pilots.

"It's not about bashing 60-year-old pilots so we can benefit," said Ben Armen, 36, a first officer who has been flying 11 years for a major U.S. airline after starting with a regional commuter carrier. "But the group seeking to raise the age limit overnight is trying to make a political change to prolong their earning capabilities."

Keeping the pilot retirement age is supported by the Air Line Pilots Association, the nation's largest pilots union.

Supporters of raising the retirement limit say the pilots group is courting entry-level pilots working for regional airlines, warning that the FAA might impose additional training and qualification standards on all pilots. Supporters also say that the union is ignoring the fact that airlines might not even be around without the financial sacrifices senior pilots have made.

E. Allan Englehardt, a 37-year United veteran, said the existing rule is "gross age discrimination" and would force him to become a burden on society.

"My big problem if I am forced to retire on Jan. 29 is how am I going to support my wife and 15-year-old son," said Englehardt of Lake Bluff. "I want to send my son to college and help him reach his goals in life. Isn't that what every parent wants?"

Bill Siegert, a Boeing 737 captain with Southwest Airlines, which is fighting the government's refusal to raise the retirement age, said the deciding factor comes down to who is best served by the FAA's intransigence.

In addition to Southwest and its pilots union, JetBlue Airways and ATA Airlines also support raising the retirement age. Major carriers are on the sidelines.

"Our flying public deserves the best pilot, the most experienced and the most qualified," said Siegert, who turns 58 this year. "The age-60 rule does cause a brain drain."

Siegert said he and his wife, Gayle, are prepared to pack up and move overseas from their home in Kane County if that is what it takes for him to continue flying.

Without a change in the age rule, many pilots turning 60 will wait for Social Security to kick in and live on retirement checks substantially smaller than what they planned for because their financially struggling airlines reduced or terminated pilot pensions.

Other veteran pilots will begin second careers as expatriate Americans flying under foreign flags.

Pilots like Hinnenkamp say they anticipated a comfortable retirement and saw no need to keep flying beyond age 60 until they lost most of their pension and all of their medical and dental benefits in retirement.

"Now I will have to live on less than one quarter of what I planned to live on," said Hinnenkamp, who lives with his wife in Morgan Hill, Calif., about an hour's drive from San Francisco International Airport, his base for United.

He worries about the future.

"My father died at age 96, and his older brother is now 102," Hinnenkamp said. "I may be retired longer than I flew."

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[email protected]

[email protected]
 
E. Allan Englehardt, a 37-year United veteran, said the existing rule is "gross age discrimination" and would force him to become a burden on society.

"My big problem if I am forced to retire on Jan. 29 is how am I going to support my wife and 15-year-old son," said Englehardt of Lake Bluff. "I want to send my son to college and help him reach his goals in life. Isn't that what every parent wants?"

....Probably by continuing to charge $400 CASH for checkrides...or whatever the his rate is these days.
 
"E. Allan Englehardt, a 37-year United veteran, said the existing rule is "gross age discrimination" and would force him to become a burden on society."

I wonder what his stance was in the late 60's when he got hired at the age of 23? During his 10 years of sitting sideways on the panel I am sure he was glad to benefit from a manditory retirement age.

"The kid who replaces me on the seniority list at United will not have been born when I dropped bombs on Vietnam," the U.S. Navy veteran said.

That "kid" was you in 69'.
 
So you're telling me that 60 is discrimination, but if you change the age to any other arbitrary number. . . say. . . 65, now that's not the same thing in 5 years? The point is, just like driving, there needs to be a cutoff somewhere. It was 60 when they brought their ball and bat, and it should be 60 when they go home.
 
knelson said:
It was 60 when they brought their ball and bat, and it should be 60 when they go home.

...and the story, not so long ago relatively, was that the earth was "flat".

Things change, stuff happens...
 
knelson said:
It was 60 when they brought their ball and bat, and it should be 60 when they go home.

I guess in knelson's world nothing ever changes. No new schools are never built, we never went to the moon, and we are still flying DC3s. Hang up your cell phone and get out your tin can and string. Take a look outside of your little bubble.
 
knelson said:
So you're telling me that 60 is discrimination, but if you change the age to any other arbitrary number. . . say. . . 65, now that's not the same thing in 5 years?
I am very curious to know the argument to this statement by those who would have the age 60 rule changed.

At what age is it ok? Even if the rule is set at 82 years of age, some 81 year old will have a case saying that he is being disciminated against by being forced to retire. So then what to do?
 
freeflyer14 said:
I am very curious to know the argument to this statement by those who would have the age 60 rule changed.

At what age is it ok? Even if the rule is set at 82 years of age, some 81 year old will have a case saying that he is being disciminated against by being forced to retire. So then what to do?

Keep going. With that logic, you can make the same argument. If it's arbitrarily set at 60, why not move it to 65? It will change, sooner or later. I am not in favor, but I am planning on it changing.
 
that is exactly what I was thinking! Alimony is expensive that is why we need to change the 60 age rule. Nice.
 
"The kid who replaces me on the seniority list at United will not have been born when I dropped bombs on Vietnam," the U.S. Navy veteran said.

Kid? Whats the upgrade time there?

By the time I upgrade at SWA... I will have been flying for 18 years, have over 10000 hours and be 36/37 years old. Am I the "kid" he is talking about?
 
10,000 hours! WTF are you guys at SWA doing!! I plan to retire with less than 10,000 hours - and I'm only 38.

You guys work waaaay too hard.
 
"The kid who replaces me on the seniority list at United will not have been born when I dropped bombs on Vietnam," the U.S. Navy veteran said.

That kid is going to be a required babysitter for this old dick. He better hope that the "kid" is willing to babysit him. He really is pretty full of himself. I'm sure he is the "best" and most "experienced out there". Ya right. This guy is an old, arrogant, ignorant sailor. He needs to retire.

If he can't afford to send his kid to school then he can do like the rest of us. Get student loans and the kid can pay them back after he gets a job.
 
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I always ask these guys, "Didn't you know that age 60 was the cutoff when you accepted the position?" That gets 'em going. You knew the rules going in... okay, let me get this right, we start the game and it lasts for nine innings. Yet at the top of the ninth, your team is short of runs, so you ask the umpire to make a 10 or 11 inning game... oh, nevermind! Now you are 59 years old and you piss and moan about how wrong it is. If age 60 was a problem for you, then you should have flown corporate.

It's like working weekends and holidays in this business. (Seems every holiday season we get a bunch of FAs at SWA who get "sick" right around December 24th.) You know the rules going into the job.

I also love how the media plays into this whole "most experienced" pilot at the controls horse sh*t. Well, guess what? They guy replacing the retiree didn't just walk up to the ticket counter last week and say, "Hey, gimme one of them there pilot applications. I think I'll give that a try." There are plenty of well experienced younger captains who are perfectly capable of taking the retiree's place on the seniority list. Also, I know at SWA FOs now have a hell of a lot more experience when they upgrade, unlike the guys from 25-30 years ago. Some of them had a whopping 12 - 18 months in the right seat at SWA. Now they lecture us "kids" about how we need to get some good experience before accepting a Captain's bid. Blah blah blah!! :puke:
 
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RightBettor said:
I always ask these guys, "Didn't you know that age 60 was the cutoff when you accepted the position?" That gets 'em going. You knew the rules going in... okay, let me get this right, we start the game and it lasts for nine innings. Yet at the top of the ninth, your team is short of runs, so you ask the umpire to make a 10 or 11 inning game... oh, nevermind! Now you are 59 years old and you piss and moan about how wrong it is. If age 60 was a problem for you, then you should have flown corporate.

Your absolutely right. The rules never change in baseball. Oh wait, what is that designated hitter thing? How many wild card teams make the playoffs? Wasn't the way it was when I started watching baseball. Damn analogies.
 
Okay, bad analogy, I'll agree. If people want to fight for change, then that's fine, but knock of this whole "it's discrimination" and "it's not fair" garbage.
 
He is turning 60 and his brother is 102?!! Guess good judgment runs in the family.

This guy started in 1970. He enjoyed all the airline good times and now claims not to have a pot to pi$$ in. Tough luck dude.

Sorry old guys, you got to go. Cutting the old guys a break, will cost some of the young guys (40s) over a million dollars.


If the geezers continue to screw up financially or their airlines border on failing should we extend it again in 5 years and keep doing so until they get it right or die?

FU there is too much of my money on the table.
 
RightBettor said:
Okay, bad analogy, I'll agree. If people want to fight for change, then that's fine, but knock of this whole "it's discrimination" and "it's not fair" garbage.

Ok, then stop using that crap line "they knew the rules when they hired on". Things change in every aspect of life. You sound like a bitter member of the entitlement generation.
 
Congress wants nothing to do with seeing that people get these bennies any earlier than possible. I look at the money that goes into that SS rathole every month and realize that it is gone. I may as well take some cash out back and set it on fire! What a f*cking scam (kind of a ponzi scheme really!) Ah, yes, government with their vote buying programs and a box full of IOUs laying around somehwere.
 
Flybynite said:
Things change in every aspect of life. You sound like a bitter member of the entitlement generation.

I have earned everything that I have through hard work, perseverance, and dedication. Funded my own flight training and college ed. via loans and work. My daddy didn't cut me a check for school or flying. Therefore, I don't think I am entitled to a danged thing. Entitlement generation? Really?

Am I bitter? Well, okay, maybe I am bitter about a few things in life... cynical would be a better term. Who isn't? Find someone who says they are absolutely happy about everything in their life and I'll show you someone who isn't telling you the honest truth.

Acutally, I am pretty happy about most stuff. I have a lot to be thankful for. Great family life, nice house, I drive to work, I go golfing when I feel like it (well maybe that makes me angry sometimes, but I did sink a 30-40 putt the other day... that made me happy.)

That being said, there are a few things that get me going and this age 60 "it's discrimination" thing irritates me to no end.
 
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E. Allan Englehardt said:
Starting in November, pilots up to age 65 working for foreign airlines will be allowed to command flights into the United States under an agreement the government fought to block. It was adopted this year by the International Civil Aviation Organization, which regulates international air travel and is relaxing its retirement rule to allow pilots to command an aircraft until age 65, as long as the co-pilot is no older than 59.

If (as is widely expected) the FAA files an exception to the age 65 rule, there won't be any over 60 airline pilots flying in the US.

E. Allan Englehardt said:
"The kid who replaces me on the seniority list at United will not have been born when I dropped bombs on Vietnam," the U.S. Navy veteran said.

WRONG! A furloughee will be recalled to replace him on the seniority list. It might be me. I was born in 1960. There are 8655 pilots on United's seniority list. Of the 8655, the youngest, 9 were born in 1976 and 17 were born in 1975. The US withdrew from Vietnam in 1975.
Typical of the ones crying for an age change; always playing fast and loose with the facts.

E. Allan Englehardt said:
E. Allan Englehardt, a 37-year United veteran, said the existing rule is "gross age discrimination" and would force him to become a burden on society.

"My big problem if I am forced to retire on Jan. 29 is how am I going to support my wife and 15-year-old son," said Englehardt of Lake Bluff. "I want to send my son to college and help him reach his goals in life. Isn't that what every parent wants?".

Maybe he should've tried to sell his airplane a few years ago ... nice find BN2A. I suppose if he gets desperate, he can sell his sailboat or powerboat. Perhaps even the S class Mercedes. But never the Porsche Turbo Carrera; that's a neccessity.
This guy sounds like Klako's twin brother; crying the blues while omitting a lot of key information that would disprove his 'poverty.'
 
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Andy said:
Typical of the ones crying for an age change; always playing fast and loose with the facts.



This guy sounds like Klako's twin brother; crying the blues while omitting a lot of key information that would disprove his 'poverty.'

Thank you Andy. Oh, and remember the media will never let the facts get in the way of a good story.
 
The Prussian said:
Dr. Anthony Evans, chief of the aviation medicine section of the international aviation group, said the organization decided to increase the retirement age after a study group in 2003 determined older pilots could safely continue operating passenger planes.

"The flight safety risk of aging pilots has been reduced. People are living longer, and the ability of aviation medicine and medical science to make an assessment has improved," he said, noting incapacitation training is now mandatory.

Geez, I just did an internet search on the 'esteemed' Dr Anthony Evans. Here's a link: http://www.iaasm.org/newsletter%20july%2002.htm

Copied and pasted from above:

Dr. Anthony D.B. Evans, Full Member, United Kingdom
Current position: Deputy Chief Medical Officer, CAA, UK
-1975- Commercial Pilot, British Airways
-1978-BSc. Sports Science, Liverpool Polytechnic
-1979-MSc. Human Physiology, London University
-1984-MBChB., Glasgow University
-1985-Diploma in Geriatric Medicine, Royal College of Physicians and Surgeons

-
1987-Medical Officer, UK Civil Aviation Authority
-
1989-D.Av.Med., Royal College of Physicians and Surgeonsof London
-
1993-Head, CAA Medical Standards and Certification Dept.
-1997-Head, CAA Medical Dept.
-2000-promoted to current position
-maintains currency as B757/767 professional pilot




Dr Evans is also a pilot for British Airways. No conflict of interest there, eh? He's got to be very close to 60, if not over 60. It's like the fox guarding the henhouse. Sweet.
 
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It's not discrimination. It's an arbitrary rule. Age 65 will be an arbitrary rule.

Taking our pensions is an arbitrary act.

No one is guaranteed anything in this life. If you are 30 and in 29 years, just as you are getting ready to retire, the stock market takes a dump because the Chinese finally cash in their bonds, oh well. Them's the breaks.

Of course then YOU will want the age limit raised. ;) TC
 
now's not the time

My view is with thousands of pilots on furlough (over 2500 at AA alone) now is not the time to be upping the retirement age. If it has to happen, do it when the industry is in a hiring mode. It would be less painfull then.

By the way, I'm turning 50 in May. I'm seriously considering punching out then. This industry isn't what it used to be.
 

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