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Yankee301

Boss
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Jul 27, 2002
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34
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10000+
Has anyone looked at the Airline Pilot Careers Magazine August issue yet? Check out the back where it lists flight times of new hires.
ASA and Comair are listed, two companies who say they are pretty firm with 12 and 2 minimums.

Total time hire for ASA new hire: 300 hours!!!! Multi:60, c'mon I am happy for the guy but that is a bit low

Total time hire for Comair new hire: 700 hours!!!!
Well it must be nice to have friends in high places.
Sorry about the bitterness of the post, but thought I would bring this to everyone's attention.
 

climbhappy

ex pat
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Aug 11, 2002
Posts
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low new hire times

it should be a blast watching the guy's face when they fly one down to mins with gust to 35 in a level 4 echo.. throw in a little lightning flash for effect. make it the last leg of an eight day...make it his leg
 

EOpilot

Dormant
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Mar 20, 2002
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It makes me feel so warm and safe knowing that my family may one day end up on a plane that you're flying.

Do me a favor and make sure you include your little 'lesson' in every interview you do from now on. Thanks.
 

climbhappy

ex pat
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low time hires

hey EO pilot... must have rubbed you the wrong way.. but sir the truth is unless you've flown the line and had to take the airplane from somebody that got pencil whipped through training and should have never been signed off of IOE, then you don't understand my perspective... further, ask any line pilot who has had to do the same even in VFR, they should have never made it that far...
 

MetroSheriff

Hittin' the road...
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Posts
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Re: low new hire times

climbhappy said:
it should be a blast watching the guy's face when they fly one down to mins with gust to 35 in a level 4 echo.. throw in a little lightning flash for effect. make it the last leg of an eight day...make it his leg


Man, you are barney bad-a$$!!

"Pu$$ies" like me usually just hold for a while till the level 4 is off the field. Maybe if I am lucky I will get to fly with a stud like you and pick up a few pointers.:rolleyes:
 

MetroSheriff

Hittin' the road...
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uhhh.....bet you are wrong.

When you check in with Michael today, ask him about MetroSheriff, have him tell you the Vidalia, GA., story.
 
Last edited:

climbhappy

ex pat
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metrosherriff, the vidalia stud!

let me try to put this in a language that doesn't make you curse.
The guy started this thing with a point about low timers at 121.
i have seen it first hand..it doesn't work. they actually compromise air safety when they can't handle the aircraft when flying in high density environments, ( i.e. pitch, power, trim) and controlling it during weather and imc. some can be taught, some improve, others get sent to the chief pilot's office. also, with regard to your remark about weather, I have a humble respect for mother nature, but after I upgraded and was staring at the radar monitor in the crew room, the old grey haired fart looked at me and said ...don't worry you're going...you've got a release. remember, at this level they expect us to be pros and deal with all of it. I never said fly through the dang thing.. man ,i go around it.
 

MetroSheriff

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Stud?....Hardly. Just a funny story about the glamorous world of box hauling. I am sure everyone has one just like it. As for the cursing, I was just ribbing you as I am SURE you were using the art of exageration to make your point. Sorry if it was taken out of context.

i have seen it first hand..it doesn't work. they actually compromise air safety when they can't handle the aircraft when flying in high density environments, ( i.e. pitch, power, trim) and controlling it during weather and imc. some can be taught, some improve, others get sent to the chief pilot's office.

The same could be said for many 4,5, and 6 thousand hour pilots as well.

I was an instructor in the late 80's and left aviation in the early 90's when the regionals wouldn't touch you with 1500 hours, let alone 300. But that's job market economics more than an indicator of whether or not low time pilots are safe. Ab Initio has been succesful in Europe for MANY YEARS. Military pilots are flying much more sophisticated a/c than 1900's, EMB-120, and RJ's, with a lot less than 300 hours. It all depends on the training and the individual.

Let's not throw the baby out with the bath water. That's my point.
 

Yankee301

Boss
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ab initio in europe is a completely different matter. As far as knowledge goes the european 300 hours pilot is light years ahead of the american 300 hour pilot in terms of knowledge. Anyone who holds an JAA ATP and an FAA ATP can speak to the difference. I do believe low-time pilots can be good pilots, so does climbhappy, I am sure, but I just wanted everyone to see that those 12 and 2 minimums that ASA and Comair promote, aren't so true.
 

Benzene

Got Flight Job?
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value of hours

Sure I see your point. However, I have seen that the guys with the hours have the experience to relax when things don't go as planned and systems, weather, or unexpected situations arrise.
Personally, my stick skills have not changed much above the 500 hour marker, but my judgement and ability to cope in stressful
situtaions has changed and continues to get better.
 

climbhappy

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metro sherriff, ab initio,

you have a good point about ab initio, so let me go here, there is a tendency in some training depts to mollycoddle and show a tolerance for less than standard. if the low time does a great job then fantastic, I know such a guy, and ihelped him get on CCair with five hundred, i'd flown with him and he was a good stick...in sum, if you're a good stick, hours are irrevelent, and touchay for the guys that are getting hired
 

MetroSheriff

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Re: value of hours

Benzene said:
However, I have seen that the guys with the hours have the experience to relax when things don't go as planned and systems, weather, or unexpected situations arrise.


Now that's for sure!!!


Personally, my stick skills have not changed much above the 500 hour marker, but my judgement and ability to cope in stressful
situtaions has changed and continues to get better.

I think my judgement may be a little better, but I still land 'em like a 14 hour student pilot...

;)
 

MetroSheriff

Hittin' the road...
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Re: metro sherriff, ab initio,

climbhappy said:
you have a good point about ab initio, so let me go here, there is a tendency in some training depts to mollycoddle and show a tolerance for less than standard. if the low time does a great job then fantastic, I know such a guy, and ihelped him get on CCair with five hundred, i'd flown with him and he was a good stick...in sum, if you're a good stick, hours are irrevelent, and touchay for the guys that are getting hired

Good point, and I agree that there are training depts that let some lowtimers slide. In that case, the blame is on the IP or the structure of the dept., not the pilot. If they can handle it, great!! If not, they should be shown the door. There are too many competent, proficient pilots, high and low time, to wet nurse a substandard new hire along thru a training program. They should be shown NO preference just because they came thru a bridge program or internship, IMHO.

Then again opinions are like....oh never mind.
 

CF34-3B1

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Yankee301 said:
I just wanted everyone to see that those 12 and 2 minimums that ASA and Comair promote, aren't so true.

Can't speak for Comair, but the low time newhires at ASA are few and far between these days, and mostly they're still being hired to fulfill the contract ASA and FSI had. I know the bridge programs with many of the colleges have stopped. I think the advertising of super low time newhires you see are mostly just that, Advertisements, trying to sell something.

I don't have any official #'s, but of the newhires I've flown with or spoken to lately, the vast majority are coming from other 121 carriers. Lots of Eagle, Commutair, etc coming over. We've got furloughed Delta guys in class, I just flew with a newhire who has 3 type ratings. Trust me, we're not hiring very many low timers.

That being said, the low timers generally do fine, and almost always have a good attitude and work ethic. The lack of experience is an issue, but not a huge one, and most of our line Capts have no problem with them.
 

gump88

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There must have been some really "experienced" pilots on the Korean Air flight that sqwauked 7500 for the last 90 minutes of their flight on Sept. 11 due to a "misunderstanding" of ATC instructions! Yea, ab initio works?!?!?!? RIGHT!

Pay your freakin dues!!!!!!!!!!!

gump
 

Benzene

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paying your dues

There is always someone else out there with more experience tand has supposely paid more dues than you. Get off that spot.
On the other hand, there is no short cut in aviation that will not eventually injur person or property, more than likely it will do both.

However, for the last eight months my dues have been going absolutely out the door. There is no magic number, our bussiness is not run by the FARs its run by the insurance man, with no other knowledge than averages and mean percentages.
 

gump88

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Yea, but 500 hours and a commercial certificate should not put you anywhere near a 121 Airline!!!!


Flame away!!!!!!! I have been there......13 years in 121 ops and 20 years in aviation! And if you try to say its all about the "quality of training", thats BS!!!!! I have been actively involved in training for AOPA for the past 7 years, it's about EXPERIENCE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! You can't teach JUDGEMENT!!!!!!!!!!!!!


Oh well, here it comes..................haha

gump:eek:
 

gump88

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You **CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED** right it reflects on their training and inexperience!!!!!


gump
 
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