MetroSheriff
Hittin' the road...
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Those times look like they come from someone in the intern program. They work at ASA for six month as a gofer in operations or the CP's office, then go through the interview process, and are usually hired to fly. It is a pretty good deal for them. They seem to be pretty good quality people for the most part.
I actually know several of the 300 hour pilots that ASA just hired. As happy as I am for them to have gotten a great job, I'm not a huge fan of the program, which is essentially a PFT through FlightSafety. Pay 30 Grand after your comm/multi/inst and they essentially guarantee you the job, though your final checkride in the FlightSafety program is with an ASA guy.
As far as "paying dues" goes, I firmly believe that the quality of your flight time is DRAMATICALLY more important that the quantity. Having to get 1000s of hours is part of the game in the civilian world, but right now there are 300 hour pilots flying single seat Hornets off aircraft carriers in all kinds of weather. While we're having our little arguments about who's paying dues and who isn't, these guys - because of the quality of the training they got - are on the tip of the spear, flying 6+ hour missions in combat.
It probably took most of those guys close to 3 years or more to get those 300 hours, and for every hour in flight, they probably spent 4 or 5 in study, prep, brief and debrief, but the bottom line is that TT isn't eveything. I don't think you can look at one number and arbitrarily rate someone's experience and ability.
(And I don't just say this because my TT is low, but I admit that's probably part of it...
I'll get off my soapbox now!
As far as "paying dues" goes, I firmly believe that the quality of your flight time is DRAMATICALLY more important that the quantity. Having to get 1000s of hours is part of the game in the civilian world, but right now there are 300 hour pilots flying single seat Hornets off aircraft carriers in all kinds of weather. While we're having our little arguments about who's paying dues and who isn't, these guys - because of the quality of the training they got - are on the tip of the spear, flying 6+ hour missions in combat.
It probably took most of those guys close to 3 years or more to get those 300 hours, and for every hour in flight, they probably spent 4 or 5 in study, prep, brief and debrief, but the bottom line is that TT isn't eveything. I don't think you can look at one number and arbitrarily rate someone's experience and ability.
(And I don't just say this because my TT is low, but I admit that's probably part of it...
I'll get off my soapbox now!
Wasatch CFI
Katana Conquistador
- Joined
- Feb 21, 2002
- Posts
- 26
Gump88,
I half-way agree with your position. However, there is no substitute for training, and excellent training goes a long way. I've got two Navy buddies who were landing their F/A-18's on carriers with only several hundred hours to boot.
If they can do it, so can folks who come from well structured civilian training programs.
I half-way agree with your position. However, there is no substitute for training, and excellent training goes a long way. I've got two Navy buddies who were landing their F/A-18's on carriers with only several hundred hours to boot.
If they can do it, so can folks who come from well structured civilian training programs.
You are comparing apples and oranges! Would you take that same 300 hour F 18 pilot and put him in the cockpit of a modern commercial airliner and think that he/she could effectively operate as part of the cockpit "team" in the safe and efficient transport of paying passengers from point A to point B in low IMC? Not without a LOT of applicable training. Nor do I think that I could strap on an F 18 and safely engage the enemy!
Let's don't start the ole military versus civilian thing again. I think it has been beat to death on this board! Plus I dont think a 300 hour F 18 pilot would be paying ASA $30,000 for a freakin job!!!
Peace,
gump
Let's don't start the ole military versus civilian thing again. I think it has been beat to death on this board! Plus I dont think a 300 hour F 18 pilot would be paying ASA $30,000 for a freakin job!!!
Peace,
gump
I am absolutely NOT in any way whatsoever comparing Naval Aviator training to FlightSafety's ASA program.
My discussion of Navy training is simply an illustration of how a very select group of pilots are capable of doing an extremely demanding job despite the fact that they would be considered "low time" in the civilian world. That's all...
My discussion of Navy training is simply an illustration of how a very select group of pilots are capable of doing an extremely demanding job despite the fact that they would be considered "low time" in the civilian world. That's all...
gump88 said:
Okay, definitely don't want to go down the road of civ versus military again but in answer to your question...I think you could put that F-18 guy in that situation and he would handle it extremely well. Flying in a combat tactical environment makes flying point A to point B seem really, well... EASY. Heck, in the Herc we don't even fly that fast (relative to a fighter) but I can tell you I'm a lot more task saturated flying a low level 300 hundred feet off the ground, dodging mountains, talking to other formation aircraft, talking to AWACS, talking to ATC, while reading a chart, avoiding threats while backing up the other pilot than I ever am flying point A to point B (yawn). And yes...I've flown plenty in the northeast corrider and in weather down to mins and I'm telling you, it doesn't come close. Just wanted to share my 2 cents from my own experience. Flame away!
MetroSheriff
Hittin' the road...
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- 854
Food for thought
It's funny how people have different views depending on where you are. I believe they are actually jealous. I am too, but I don't comdemn them. If you where a FSI guy with 300 hours, would you like to do the ASA thing? YES. Well guess what, in the late 60's, you could be hired with a CIME with the minimum of hours into the majors. Some were conditionally hired without any licenses. Same with the European airlines. Military goes from a C172 to a turboprop with very little hours, and then to jets. It's not the amount of hours you have, it's the knowledge you learn. Experience is learned on the job. There is a FIRST for everything. You can't learn experience without doing it whether you have 300 hours or 2500 hours for 121 operations. Does flying 1500 hours prepare you for a regional airline compared to 300 hours? It could be said that you have less bad habits with the 300 guy. Does it prepare you for CAT at FL310, or weather and operations at flight levels above 12,000 feet? And guess what, you have a guy sitting in the left seat to AID you whether you have 300 hours or 2500 hours.
When I worked in construction as an engineer, construction workers would say "We have been doing that for years." I would say "How about doing it right this time?" Low time pilots have been flying Part 121 for decades with no problems.
It's funny how people have different views depending on where you are. I believe they are actually jealous. I am too, but I don't comdemn them. If you where a FSI guy with 300 hours, would you like to do the ASA thing? YES. Well guess what, in the late 60's, you could be hired with a CIME with the minimum of hours into the majors. Some were conditionally hired without any licenses. Same with the European airlines. Military goes from a C172 to a turboprop with very little hours, and then to jets. It's not the amount of hours you have, it's the knowledge you learn. Experience is learned on the job. There is a FIRST for everything. You can't learn experience without doing it whether you have 300 hours or 2500 hours for 121 operations. Does flying 1500 hours prepare you for a regional airline compared to 300 hours? It could be said that you have less bad habits with the 300 guy. Does it prepare you for CAT at FL310, or weather and operations at flight levels above 12,000 feet? And guess what, you have a guy sitting in the left seat to AID you whether you have 300 hours or 2500 hours.
When I worked in construction as an engineer, construction workers would say "We have been doing that for years." I would say "How about doing it right this time?" Low time pilots have been flying Part 121 for decades with no problems.
750driver
Well-known member
- Joined
- Dec 13, 2001
- Posts
- 367
Yankee writes:
Well, I'm happy for Comair and hope this man / woman works out for them. He / she must be a higher quality of applicant, because they turned me down earlier this year. First interview I ever had where the company reps were actually hostile and borderline unprofessional IMO. Two other guys in my interview group reported the same reaction from the HR and Pilot reps that day. I've never experienced anything like it, and my contact (Comair Captain) was not happy about it.
It's too bad, because I think it would have been a good company to work for otherwise.
Well, I'm happy for Comair and hope this man / woman works out for them. He / she must be a higher quality of applicant, because they turned me down earlier this year. First interview I ever had where the company reps were actually hostile and borderline unprofessional IMO. Two other guys in my interview group reported the same reaction from the HR and Pilot reps that day. I've never experienced anything like it, and my contact (Comair Captain) was not happy about it.
It's too bad, because I think it would have been a good company to work for otherwise.
climbhappy
ex pat
- Joined
- Aug 11, 2002
- Posts
- 2,159
flying f-14s off hornets
let me get this straight , the quality of the training you recieved was so superior that anybody, including a numbnutt like me, could be trained to fly a hornet off a carrier and land at night, crap., what's the age limit and the chief pilot's name?
actually, the mental capacity of a hornet driver much esteemed like yourself, and for that I salute you sir, is probably far superior than the typical 300 hour kid out of riddle or any body else who's wrestled 120 horses.
let me get this straight , the quality of the training you recieved was so superior that anybody, including a numbnutt like me, could be trained to fly a hornet off a carrier and land at night, crap., what's the age limit and the chief pilot's name?
actually, the mental capacity of a hornet driver much esteemed like yourself, and for that I salute you sir, is probably far superior than the typical 300 hour kid out of riddle or any body else who's wrestled 120 horses.
Freight Dog
Well-known member
- Joined
- Nov 26, 2001
- Posts
- 2,232
What the hell is all the squawking about here??!
I've been flying C-172's through all kinds of challenging VFR weather. When I upgraded to PA-28 and low-wing, I could no longer see the ground quite accurately as I could in C-172 and that scared the bejeepers out of me! So finally, my instructor decided to further upgrade me into C-172RG which TOTALLY scared the bejeezus out of me because the freakin gear goes up and down!!!!!!! Not to mention the little blue thingamajig between the mixture and the throttle.. what the f*($# is that??!!
But I mastered that!!! I am the Master of My Universe!
Instrument rating and instrument flying??? Who says it's tough to shoot instrument approaches to the mins? I've done it my entire instrument training under the hood to an acceptable level of accuracy!!!
So now, I'm cool, but my instructor got the whiff that I felt high and mighty so he decided to throw me into a two-engine airplane. Now, WOW!!!! there are just too many levers in that f****ing thing! Then he's hammering me on procedures like cram, climb, clean, cool, call... any clue what the hell he's talking about??! I mean it almost sounds as if he's talking about mounting a chick. In any case, I decided to play along... and whaddya know.. I have a fistful of certificates and 300 hours, not to mention my instructor only has 400 hours.
Now where's that CRJ??
I've been flying C-172's through all kinds of challenging VFR weather. When I upgraded to PA-28 and low-wing, I could no longer see the ground quite accurately as I could in C-172 and that scared the bejeepers out of me! So finally, my instructor decided to further upgrade me into C-172RG which TOTALLY scared the bejeezus out of me because the freakin gear goes up and down!!!!!!! Not to mention the little blue thingamajig between the mixture and the throttle.. what the f*($# is that??!!
But I mastered that!!! I am the Master of My Universe!
Instrument rating and instrument flying??? Who says it's tough to shoot instrument approaches to the mins? I've done it my entire instrument training under the hood to an acceptable level of accuracy!!!
So now, I'm cool, but my instructor got the whiff that I felt high and mighty so he decided to throw me into a two-engine airplane. Now, WOW!!!! there are just too many levers in that f****ing thing! Then he's hammering me on procedures like cram, climb, clean, cool, call... any clue what the hell he's talking about??! I mean it almost sounds as if he's talking about mounting a chick. In any case, I decided to play along... and whaddya know.. I have a fistful of certificates and 300 hours, not to mention my instructor only has 400 hours.
Now where's that CRJ??
Good one Freight Dog!
There ARE too many levers in this flipping thing... And they don't control the fans the same ways. I move one, opps, wrong one, move the other, get it right, gotta go back to the first to put it where it belongs, wrong one again, dang there goes the localizer, back to capture that one, and the power helps the turn, back to the other lever, Thank Piper the props can stay set, sh** there goes the glideslope, gear, whoah pitch DOWN, whoah baby, whoah, power, no the other one, pant pant, wait, DH, no airport, missed approach, which one do I move first!!!!!?????!!!!
Multis sure seem to be an awful lot of work for not much increase in performance. I know a P210 will suck the doors off the Baron we were simulating.
Just think, if I was at Sheble's in 4 flight hours and three days I can be flying a multi on a checkride. . .
Fly SAFE!
Jedi Nein
There ARE too many levers in this flipping thing... And they don't control the fans the same ways. I move one, opps, wrong one, move the other, get it right, gotta go back to the first to put it where it belongs, wrong one again, dang there goes the localizer, back to capture that one, and the power helps the turn, back to the other lever, Thank Piper the props can stay set, sh** there goes the glideslope, gear, whoah pitch DOWN, whoah baby, whoah, power, no the other one, pant pant, wait, DH, no airport, missed approach, which one do I move first!!!!!?????!!!!
Multis sure seem to be an awful lot of work for not much increase in performance. I know a P210 will suck the doors off the Baron we were simulating.
Just think, if I was at Sheble's in 4 flight hours and three days I can be flying a multi on a checkride. . .
Fly SAFE!
Jedi Nein
Yankee 301,
I'm sure you have NO experience flying with these europeans or asian 300 hour pilots. I agree, their book knowledge is much betternthan a American pilot ( who cares how a VOR or NDB are transmitting, as long as they are), but their flying SUCK ( a 300 hour pilot is a 300 hour pilot, no matter how you look at it). The only time they do a OK job is when the flight plan in the FMS (arrival, approach) agrees with what is actually flown, and that has to be on a good, no wind, VMC day.
BRA
Rollins Rules!
- Joined
- Jun 11, 2002
- Posts
- 905
I agree, 300 hour european pilots have the tech knowledge and will try and fly the plane that way. Doesn't always work, you have to be able to finess it. Give them some wind or turbulence and the altitude goes all over. In general. I heard a gulfstream B1900 the other day. The kid sounded just like a 300 hour pilot, and you hear when the captain was correcting his calls. Sounded like babysitting to me. I was laughing myself.
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