Chautauqua

[JBcrjca]

Actually, if you read the whole thread you would see I was not really hurt.

I read the entire thread, and I never implied that you were hurt... but in hindsight, it looks like you started that thread merely to start a SKW bashfest. Nice.

You do not like my post because the truth hurts.

Actually, I do not like your posts because of your extremely bad attitude and your habit of bashing anyone that doesn't work for your beloved airline.

The contract carrier issue has been discussed many times on this board...it's not 'another excuse'. You must have had your head in the sand.

How about just letting this silly thread die right here? Nothing else can be said that hasn't been said many times before. Somehow I doubt Afellow will let that happen.

 

[Dave Benjamin]

Didn't CHQ negotiate their contract after 9/11? Aren't they a contract carrier versus a wholly owned? Didn't Comair's parent company, DAL, reduce the amount paid on the fee for departure agreements compared to pre 9/11 levels? Thanks to the CMR strike many hubs have become integrated to shield DAL from the effects of a strike. So just what negotiating capital did the CHQ negotiators have to demand CMR + wages?

I'd really appreciate if certain PFT pukes would quit gloating over their pre 9/11 contract. Their attitudes probably make some folks kind of pleased to be taking some growth at the expense of CMR. Pathetic is an understatement.

 

[Beantown]

Didn't CHQ negotiate their contract after 9/11? Aren't they a contract carrier versus a wholly owned? Didn't Comair's parent company, DAL, reduce the amount paid on the fee for departure agreements compared to pre 9/11 levels? Thanks to the CMR strike many hubs have become integrated to shield DAL from the effects of a strike. So just what negotiating capital did the CHQ negotiators have to demand CMR + wages?

I'd really appreciate if certain PFT pukes would quit gloating over their pre 9/11 contract. Their attitudes probably make some folks kind of pleased to be taking some growth at the expense of CMR. Pathetic is an understatement.

Dave, Couldn't be more on target. -Bean

 

[Dave Benjamin]

Bean,
Are you one of the CHQ guys?

AfellowAviator made a very telling statement several posts prior. Did you notice it?

Actually, all the pilots and flight attendants I fly with and all my students rather enjoy my company.

Yep I'm sure they do.

 

[moscowcfi]

PFT

I know I sound like a clueless moron, but I'm not up on the lingo yet. I just started swimming in the airline pool after instructing for a while, so I'd appreciate it if someone explained what PFT is and why it is such a controversy. A calm rational explanation would be much appreciated, instead of using the response as a spring board towards bashing someone else. I understand it has to do with paying for training, and is something Comair used to do over 5 years ago (as far as I know), and is no longer their policy, so what is the big fuss?

Many Thanks!

 

[Price]

The big fuss is this. PFT(pay for training), was the way of the land in commuter world back not to long ago. But now that the commuters are Regionals and they need a lot of warm bodies to fill the seats they had to get rid of PFT. To say CHQ is a sell out pilot group is hypocrisy from anyone who payed for their job. So that's what this is all about. I think PFT still exists with some companies but only if you don't meet a certain flight time.

 

[Beantown]

Bean,
Are you one of the CHQ guys?

AfellowAviator made a very telling statement several posts prior. Did you notice it?

No, I do not fly for Chq but what you said was right on.

AfellowAviator is an idiot and what he said a few posts prior shows that. Enough said. -Bean

 

[cl65200]

"We were the first airline to sign a non-concessionary contract post 9/11"


Wrong. Mesa got their before CHQ.
I know, I know.... our (Mesa ) contract is still not where it should be, but it is still a improvement over our old one.

 

[Dave Benjamin]

Re: PFT

I know I sound like a clueless moron, but I'm not up on the lingo yet. I just started swimming in the airline pool after instructing for a while, so I'd appreciate it if someone explained what PFT is and why it is such a controversy.

I think personal perspective can be helpful in understanding why so many of us hold a grudge regarding PFT. Here's my story. Back when the commuters started doing PFT which meant you paid 12K to offset the training cost for your 10K/year job, I was a 135 freight pilot making in the mid-high 20's. The company I worked for had crappy maintenance and I had some close calls. Some of my friends weren't as lucky. They went down when their unairworthy, illegally signed off airplanes suffered catastrophic failures. One of my buddies almost drowned when he went down in the water and almost didn't get out. As the eternal optomist I figured I'd just tough it out, build some time, and go to commuter so I could sit right seat in a Metro or something.

Unfortunately for me by the time I was approaching hiring mins for the commuter PFT reared its ugly head. Now I was faced with a dilemna. My job wasn't getting any safer. I caught a bunch of grief from my boss when I grounded an airplane. I warned the other pilots about the situation and the owner himself tried to fly it back to base. He ended up deadsticking the POS into an uncontrolled airport about half way. He was pretty ticked off at me for not flying the thing go back. Go figure.

I had 4 or 5 emergencies under my belt and it didn't seem strange to land with a fire engine escorting me down the runway. I started to wonder how much longer my luck would hold out. With commuter prospects bleak thanks to PFT I ended up gong back into the construction industry for about 4.5 years. Meanwhile some jerk with $12,000 took the seat that I felt pretty qualified to occupy. It wasn't that the guy wth $12,000 was a better pilot. He or she was willing to buy the seat.

 

[moscowcfi]

Dave, I appreciate you taking your time to write your story. I can certainly sympathise with your situation, but I'm still a little confused. And please, understand, I really want to understand this because this issue is completely new to me and a lot of the emotions flying around these forums are very foreign to me. First, how is this different from the $70,000 I just spent to get my ratings so I could be hired by a regional? I didn't have a penny of that but got loans and will have to tough it out for the next couple of decades, and consider it worth it. Many people certainly go that way. Second, if most companies got rid of it (at least I know that Comair did a few years back), why is this still an issue? Why did someone call Chautauqua sellouts? (If you can spell it alone you should be given a medal) I think there were some people pretty pissed at Comair as well. And again, I really am not trying to start something here. I really just honestly don't understand, and since I'll be going into training in a few months, I'd like to get a feel for what pilots are concerned about.

Thanks again.

 

[BoilerUP]

You paid $70K (which seems awfully high, does that include a college degree?) for your ratings so you could be employed. The distinction comes when you drop an extra 8-12K TO GET A JOB. Many "regionals" airlines in the mid-90s were PFT, including Comair, Expressjet, ASA, and Chautauqua. "Hired" employees had to pay for their training up front before they could start flying for pay.

Many wholly-owned regional airline pilots (ExpressJet, Comair, ASA, American Eagle, etc) on this board bash Mesa and CHQ and occasionally TSA because their contracts aren't a few precentage points above Comair's. They bash Skywest because they are non-union and *currently* fly 70 seat jets for 50 seat rates, although this will change. They claim these companies have "sold out for growth", i.e. accepted lower pay (especially on FO scales) because they are growing rapidly and people are upgrading quickly, often at the expense of the wholly-owned carriers.

The contract carriers (CHQ, SKW, Mesa, etc) often complain that many of the wholly-owned (WO) pilots "bought their job" through PFT (although it was common in the mid-90s) and that they whine about other people's contracts when they are unwilling to take the burden themselves to "raise the bar".

Who is right and who is wrong in this argument? Nobody and everybody. And the whipsaw goes on and on and on...did I miss anything?

I HIGHLY suggest you read both Hard Landing and Flying the Line Vol. 2 before you start your airline career. Best of luck to ya, and welcome to the board.

 

[Dave Benjamin]

First, how is this different from the $70,000 I just spent to get my ratings so I could be hired by a regional? <snip>

Second, if most companies got rid of it (at least I know that Comair did a few years back), why is this still an issue?

There is no comparison between PFT and what you did. You invested $70K so that you could attain the required FAA ratings/certs that will be yours for the rest of your life barring amedment, suspension, modification, or revocation by the FAA as promulgated by the Civil Aviation Act of 1958. Those are your tickets my friend. Congrats. You have a right to be proud.

The FAA requires all airlines to provide indoctrination and and aircraft specific training. Traditionally that expense is borne by the airlines. You show up with the right FAA certs and experience and the company trains you to their standard. That's simply part of the cost of doing business and it's required by the Feds anyway. When airlines utilize PFT they no longer get to choose the best qualified candidate for the job. It's more or less whoever meets the insurance requirements and has the money to blow. In essence the PFT pilot is substituting a checkbook for other qualifying factors. What kind of message did PFT pilots send to airline management when they wrote the check? Here's an example of what happens when pilots are willing to whore themselves out. When I was at that 135 outfit a fellow pilot went to management with a legitimate gripe. You know what the boss told him? I'll never forget this either. The boss said "look son, I've got pilots willing to take your job and fly for free. If you don't like it here feel free to quit." What effect do you think PFT had on pay and quality of life in this industry? I know guys at my airline who negotiated pay and work rules on behalf of the pilot group. How many times do you think they were told, "look, at the other airlines the new hires are paying for their own training. How do you expect us to pay a Metro FO $17/ hour?"

You also asked why is PFT an issue. It really isn't until some a$$wipe that PFT'd starts calling other pilots SkyWhore and crap like that. Normally I'd never bring it up. However I don't take kindly to somebody from a former PFT airline telling other pilots how they're lowering the bar. PFT help put the bar on the ground in the first place. I was there and I saw it drop.

BoilerUp has some good reading recommendations. I'd check them out.

 

[moscowcfi]

Thanks for the information and advice, guys. I think the $70,000 probably included my living expenses, but yes, I did spend a lot. It led to a job offer from a very good airline, though, so I'm not too upset.

I hope someone will slap me really hard if I ever become one of these whiny people that can't get a long with fellow pilots, regardless of their airline. Except for SkyWest, of course. I HATE THEM! Just kidding. I think I haven't been corrupted yet into hating any pilot groups or airlines and I hope I never will be. Perhaps I'm just naive, but it seems to me we are all professionals that worked really hard to get where we are. Well, in my case it was a few well-placed bribes, but that's another story. I'm sure someone else has already tried the "can't we all just get along" line, so I won't bore you all with it.

I'll look up that reading, and thank's again for the info.

 

[LegacyDriver]

I find it funny that the only people complaining about the CHQ contract are pilots from other companies.

I'm CHQ and I'll gladly complain about the contract. I freely admit that it was a dramatic improvement, but we could have done better if we had stuck to our guns. I think we caved under the pressure of management lies.

 

[Buford T Justic]

I was not trying to start a war here. I have a job i am just trying to get some info. for a friend trying to get on there. Would some one please just post the FO pay rates !!!!