Chautauqua

[I.P. Freley]

Well you're right about one thing, YOU didn't say you were a 2yr FO, someone else did and I was mistaken.

Then again, you've assumed things about me that are wrong, so I guess we're even.

That doesn't excuse your amazing lack of understanding about how 9/11 and the subsequent downturn in the industry and the economy DID affect CHQ's (and everyone else's) bargaining position. Calling it "pathetic" defies all understanding, actually. Do you just attach that phrase to PROVE you're on Mars? I guess all you see is the CHQ contract, their pay scales, and that's an open and shut case. Never you mind about what was going on at the time, what they had to do to shut out Republic, etc.

The repeated assertions by an unfortunately vocal minority over at Comair sure does make the whole bunch of you look like the kind of people you wouldn't want to be stuck in a room with. I'm sure that there's a fine gang down there in Cincinnati, but the "I'm better than you" bunch seems to find it's way onto this board.

Unfortunate, really. A friend of mine who's a flight attendant asked me the other day "howcome it seems like all regional pilots hate each other?"

Wish I had an answer. A good way to start would be to stop flinging insults like spoiled schoolchildren....

 

[AFELLOWAVIATOR]

republic? REPUBLIC?? Oh goog greif. That was an Ornstein move and you cowards fell for it. You people have no balls. You caved, pure and simple because you did not have the back bone to stand up and fight for whats right.

You say Republic would of stopped your "growth". We were told if we did not take concessions, our growth would stop, and we had the back bone and dignity to tell them to go pack sand.

This speaks volumes to the kind of pilot groups that are out there. Some have pride and dignity and others, Chitaco, Skywhore, Mesa, to name a few, are a bunch of spineless idiots who don't give a crap about the profession but just want new shiny jets to fly at any cost.

The truth hurts, don't it. I don't know how you people can look in the mirror. Pathetic, just pathetic.

OK, I'm done. You can go get back on your knees for mgt. and suck their arses some more and keep telling them thank you for allowing you to be their little suck arse whores.

 

[DrinkSweetTea]

Classy.

 

[JBcrjca]

Afellow-

You must be a truly miserable person to fly with...you spew nothing but negativity, and I feel sorry for any FOs that get paired with you and have to listen to your drivel for days on end. Your two favorite words in your posts are 'pathetic' and 'whores'. Give it a rest...your rhetoric is beyond stale, and you keep flogging a dead horse. Do you expect all of the CHQ/SKW/MSA pilots will suddenly think that you're right? Sorry, not gonna happen. The fact is, you work for a wholly owned carrier...and the ones you love to bash are contract carriers. There's a world of difference, but you're too blind and egotistical to see it.

In the 'Comair in SLC' thread, you wondered why you got the silent treatment in the SLC crew lounge. As another guy posted there, maybe the SKW crews saw your holier-than-thou attitude with your nose in the air from a mile away and made a concerted effort to avoid you. And they certainly aren't going to thank you just because you work for CMR and happened to go on strike for the good of all mankind. That strike, by the way, is most certainly one of the reasons for the whipsawing you see amongst the DCI carriers now. You're starting to make all CMR pilots look bad...but what do you care. Anyway, have a nice life and try to relax a little. Your FOs will appreciate it.

 

[I.P. Freley]

I said:

>>>A good way to start would be to stop flinging insults like spoiled schoolchildren....<<<

And the response we get from "afellowaviator" includes such lovely let's-all-hug-each-other terms as:

"no balls", "caved", "chitaco", "skywhore", "spineless idiots", "don't give a crap about the profession", "pathetic", "suck arse", and more.

You, sir, are a DELIGHT.

Does make me wonder, though, what "fellow" is supposed to mean in his screenname. I would assume that by "fellow" he insinuates that we are all aviators and he's part of the club, suffering and delighting in the aviation career along with us... But clearly the suffering is the part he has the greatest grasp of, and practically anyone not on his seniority list is beneath contempt. Good news is that there's an alternate definition of "fellow" that sums up "afellowaviator" quite nicely:

>>>A man without good breeding or worth; an ignoble or mean man.<<<

Bingo!

 

[AFELLOWAVIATOR]

Afellow-

You must be a truly miserable person to fly with...you spew nothing but negativity, and I feel sorry for any FOs that get paired with you and have to listen to your drivel for days on end. Your two favorite words in your posts are 'pathetic' and 'whores'. Give it a rest...your rhetoric is beyond stale, and you keep flogging a dead horse. Do you expect all of the CHQ/SKW/MSA pilots will suddenly think that you're right? Sorry, not gonna happen. The fact is, you work for a wholly owned carrier...and the ones you love to bash are contract carriers. There's a world of difference, but you're too blind and egotistical to see it.

In the 'Comair in SLC' thread, you wondered why you got the silent treatment in the SLC crew lounge. As another guy posted there, maybe the SKW crews saw your holier-than-thou attitude with your nose in the air from a mile away and made a concerted effort to avoid you. And they certainly aren't going to thank you just because you work for CMR and happened to go on strike for the good of all mankind. That strike, by the way, is most certainly one of the reasons for the whipsawing you see amongst the DCI carriers now. You're starting to make all CMR pilots look bad...but what do you care. Anyway, have a nice life and try to relax a little. Your FOs will appreciate it.




Actually, if you read the whole thread you would see I was not really hurt. Now the contract carrier argument is a new one. I have not heard that one before. Another excuse. It is funny how people try to justify their misgivings.

Actually, all the pilots and flight attendants I fly with and all my students rather enjoy my company. You just assume I am the only one with this opinion when in fact it is the opinion of most I run into at work.

There are no words harsh enough to desribe what these "contract carriers" have done to hurt "our" careers. It started with Mesa, and continued with cha and skw.

You do not like my post because the truth hurts. You can use any excuse you want but the real reason all these pilot groups bent over was single minded greed with no reguard to what their actions would do to the industry. They wanted growth at any cost. They showed no back bone and obviously have little pride in what they do.

 

[Bluestreak]

Yeah,you Comair boys sure set the bar high-hardly anybody could afford to buy a job there a few years ago.Did you start out as a wholly-owned ? Nope,you too,were once a lowly "contract-carrier".

 

[Strikefinder]

As it's been said on numerous occasions, I believe that the vast majority of the people at CHQ made the decision to accept our current contract under the auspices of being whipsawed by our own parent company's creation, Republic. It wasn't the fear that we'd "lose growth" as much as the fear that the creation of an alter-ego carrier with lower pay rates (not to start a flame war here, but PSA rates for those that are wondering) would provide our parent company the opportunity to take the flying that we already had away from us and give it to a lower cost carrier. Though none of us will ever know for certain, I think it's reasonable to believe that had we turned down the contract, the mediation board would not have allowed us to start the cooling off period for some time (as it was nearing the holiday season, and historically the mediation board does no release pilot groups to strike during this time), and given the opportunity to get Republic (in it's prior form) off the ground could have led to our battling and existing entity making lower wage rates than we do (and you do). Had our flying effectively been transferred to Republic at their wage rates, you'd have been pretty greatful to be battling our wage rates.

Don't think it could happen? Read up on your history of Frank and the Continental folks and how well striking worked for them. Just because you go on strike does not guarantee higher wage rates, or even a job at all. ComAir was positioned incredibly well when their strike went on, something we didn't share because of other airline contracts being signed at wage rates significantly lower than what we agreed to. Besides Mesa, TSA signed a contract extension of lower wage rates and horrible work rules, PSA agreed to horrible CRJ rates, Air Wisconsin and ACA agreed to concessionary rates (the latter of which was admittedly reversed by their cancellation of their United contract, but at the time we still had to bargain against it), Piedmont/Allegheny agreed to poor CRJ rates (which never materialized for them, though), and we still find ourselves ahead of Pinnacle, Mesaba, and CoEx's current contract. Meanwhile, our work rules significantly improved and I still believe are among the best in the industry. We were the first airline to sign a non-concessionary contract post 9/11, and so far for all the talk about sticking it to the man, I've yet to see anybody pony up and do better. I hope CoEx and ASA do, and if I actually see ComAir +X%, I will hands down congratulate you. We'll see. I love to be proven wrong.

As far as the hatred goes, I can't help how you feel. I'm very happy here, and though I might disagree with the way other pilot groups decide to deal with their own contract negotiations, I don't take it personally. And even if you want to give me the nth degree every time I see you at the airport, you're always welcome in my jumpseat unless you've crossed a picket line, and even then, it's business, not personal. It's funny, though, how all the claims that have been made to me since our contract was signed about how sorry I'll be haven't seemed to materialize for me. Only time will tell, but something tells me that won't change any time soon.

 

[JetPilot_Mike]

Don't you people get sick of arguing the same crap everyday? Ah, the freedoms of the internet message board. You never have to take responsibility for what you post.

 

[FlyingDawg]

I find it funny that the only people complaining about the CHQ contract are pilots from other companies.

 

[JBcrjca]

Actually, if you read the whole thread you would see I was not really hurt.

I read the entire thread, and I never implied that you were hurt... but in hindsight, it looks like you started that thread merely to start a SKW bashfest. Nice.

You do not like my post because the truth hurts.

Actually, I do not like your posts because of your extremely bad attitude and your habit of bashing anyone that doesn't work for your beloved airline.

The contract carrier issue has been discussed many times on this board...it's not 'another excuse'. You must have had your head in the sand.

How about just letting this silly thread die right here? Nothing else can be said that hasn't been said many times before. Somehow I doubt Afellow will let that happen.

 

[Dave Benjamin]

Didn't CHQ negotiate their contract after 9/11? Aren't they a contract carrier versus a wholly owned? Didn't Comair's parent company, DAL, reduce the amount paid on the fee for departure agreements compared to pre 9/11 levels? Thanks to the CMR strike many hubs have become integrated to shield DAL from the effects of a strike. So just what negotiating capital did the CHQ negotiators have to demand CMR + wages?

I'd really appreciate if certain PFT pukes would quit gloating over their pre 9/11 contract. Their attitudes probably make some folks kind of pleased to be taking some growth at the expense of CMR. Pathetic is an understatement.

 

[Beantown]

Didn't CHQ negotiate their contract after 9/11? Aren't they a contract carrier versus a wholly owned? Didn't Comair's parent company, DAL, reduce the amount paid on the fee for departure agreements compared to pre 9/11 levels? Thanks to the CMR strike many hubs have become integrated to shield DAL from the effects of a strike. So just what negotiating capital did the CHQ negotiators have to demand CMR + wages?

I'd really appreciate if certain PFT pukes would quit gloating over their pre 9/11 contract. Their attitudes probably make some folks kind of pleased to be taking some growth at the expense of CMR. Pathetic is an understatement.

Dave, Couldn't be more on target. -Bean

 

[Dave Benjamin]

Bean,
Are you one of the CHQ guys?

AfellowAviator made a very telling statement several posts prior. Did you notice it?

Actually, all the pilots and flight attendants I fly with and all my students rather enjoy my company.

Yep I'm sure they do.

 

[moscowcfi]

PFT

I know I sound like a clueless moron, but I'm not up on the lingo yet. I just started swimming in the airline pool after instructing for a while, so I'd appreciate it if someone explained what PFT is and why it is such a controversy. A calm rational explanation would be much appreciated, instead of using the response as a spring board towards bashing someone else. I understand it has to do with paying for training, and is something Comair used to do over 5 years ago (as far as I know), and is no longer their policy, so what is the big fuss?

Many Thanks!

 

[Price]

The big fuss is this. PFT(pay for training), was the way of the land in commuter world back not to long ago. But now that the commuters are Regionals and they need a lot of warm bodies to fill the seats they had to get rid of PFT. To say CHQ is a sell out pilot group is hypocrisy from anyone who payed for their job. So that's what this is all about. I think PFT still exists with some companies but only if you don't meet a certain flight time.

 

[Beantown]

Bean,
Are you one of the CHQ guys?

AfellowAviator made a very telling statement several posts prior. Did you notice it?

No, I do not fly for Chq but what you said was right on.

AfellowAviator is an idiot and what he said a few posts prior shows that. Enough said. -Bean

 

[cl65200]

"We were the first airline to sign a non-concessionary contract post 9/11"


Wrong. Mesa got their before CHQ.
I know, I know.... our (Mesa ) contract is still not where it should be, but it is still a improvement over our old one.

 

[Dave Benjamin]

Re: PFT

I know I sound like a clueless moron, but I'm not up on the lingo yet. I just started swimming in the airline pool after instructing for a while, so I'd appreciate it if someone explained what PFT is and why it is such a controversy.

I think personal perspective can be helpful in understanding why so many of us hold a grudge regarding PFT. Here's my story. Back when the commuters started doing PFT which meant you paid 12K to offset the training cost for your 10K/year job, I was a 135 freight pilot making in the mid-high 20's. The company I worked for had crappy maintenance and I had some close calls. Some of my friends weren't as lucky. They went down when their unairworthy, illegally signed off airplanes suffered catastrophic failures. One of my buddies almost drowned when he went down in the water and almost didn't get out. As the eternal optomist I figured I'd just tough it out, build some time, and go to commuter so I could sit right seat in a Metro or something.

Unfortunately for me by the time I was approaching hiring mins for the commuter PFT reared its ugly head. Now I was faced with a dilemna. My job wasn't getting any safer. I caught a bunch of grief from my boss when I grounded an airplane. I warned the other pilots about the situation and the owner himself tried to fly it back to base. He ended up deadsticking the POS into an uncontrolled airport about half way. He was pretty ticked off at me for not flying the thing go back. Go figure.

I had 4 or 5 emergencies under my belt and it didn't seem strange to land with a fire engine escorting me down the runway. I started to wonder how much longer my luck would hold out. With commuter prospects bleak thanks to PFT I ended up gong back into the construction industry for about 4.5 years. Meanwhile some jerk with $12,000 took the seat that I felt pretty qualified to occupy. It wasn't that the guy wth $12,000 was a better pilot. He or she was willing to buy the seat.

 

[moscowcfi]

Dave, I appreciate you taking your time to write your story. I can certainly sympathise with your situation, but I'm still a little confused. And please, understand, I really want to understand this because this issue is completely new to me and a lot of the emotions flying around these forums are very foreign to me. First, how is this different from the $70,000 I just spent to get my ratings so I could be hired by a regional? I didn't have a penny of that but got loans and will have to tough it out for the next couple of decades, and consider it worth it. Many people certainly go that way. Second, if most companies got rid of it (at least I know that Comair did a few years back), why is this still an issue? Why did someone call Chautauqua sellouts? (If you can spell it alone you should be given a medal) I think there were some people pretty pissed at Comair as well. And again, I really am not trying to start something here. I really just honestly don't understand, and since I'll be going into training in a few months, I'd like to get a feel for what pilots are concerned about.

Thanks again.